It is a shame that a forum like that skews the viewpoints so heavily one direction in a manner that is likely not very accurate. Of course the people against Walmart there will show up in mass among their set by making sure they mobilize their friends and families to go as well. Those who want more development arent going to have the same motivation to get there as those who live in the proposed area. I was a bit embarrassed with the way Caledonia represented itself at the meeting, to be honest. People were relatively rude... they certainly could have been worse though. The Village needs to reach out to the greater set of residents and get a measurement that way. The 31 corridor is going to change... eventually... they are only delaying the inevitable. I thought one of the telling bits of information was in the huge percentage of Caledonia that is zoned for residential. It is overwhelmingly zoned that way. It shows that re-zoning will have to happen eventually. The argument that development like this belongs near I94 is really weak. That is too far away from everyone... if it were there, people might as well just go to Oak Creek or Racine. One of the highlights of the meeting for me was when the CCREP guy (who kept rudely interrupting things as if he was more important than anyone else) was shot down via the fact that the old Sam's Club location WAS being used for real jobs currently. Most of the arguments against Walmart seem sound at first but do not hold up.

the land use plan was developed over a number of years by input of all the citizens of the community, so it speaks to the will of our community. not every villgae needs to turn into mount pleasant. they have problems there due to their "development" viewpoint and their taxes are higher and there is congestion, crime and noise, pollution and other issues. Caledonia, through its systematic development of its land use plan, made it clear that commercial development in large parts of the Village is NOT desirable and thus, it is not inevitable. We prefer quality of life in our community and that is what the land use plan signifies.

well said San!! The reason there were so many people who came out against the Wal-Mart JW is because the majority DON'T want it at the Hwy 31 & 4 Mile location and a large portion of those don't want it ANYWHERE in Caledonia. You want the big city life - MOVE. It is that plain and simple. Anyone having half a brain and moving to Caledonia would have checked out the village to see how progressive they were in order to decide if it was the right fit for them and their family. We want to keep it as rural and open as possible. There is no law that states we can't and/or that every square inch of land everywhere between Milwaukee and Chicago has to be developed. With all the complaining about how our I-94 corridor is so void of businesses I certainly don't see why the village board can't alert these companies to build there as their first choice.

JW:
THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT THIS IS A RESIDENTIAL AREA WITH A LAND USE AGREEMENT. US RESIDENTS DID HAVE VALID CONCERNS AND QUESTIONS THAT THE WALMART PEOPLE SKIRTED AROUND ANSWERING.
AND IF PEOPLE WHERE RUDE I DO BELIEVE THEY HAD A RIGHT TO BE. WE AS RESIDENTS HAVE TO OBEY THE LAND USE AND ITS A SLAP IN THE FACE WHEN A BIG CORP. THINKS THEY CAN COME IN AND SWEET TALK THE BOARD TO GET AROUND IT. THEY MAKE IT SOUND GOOD WHEN THEY SAY THE TAXES GOING TO THE VILLAGE WILL BE AROUND 323,000.00 BUT IN FACT ITS ONLY 28% WHICH IS ABOUT $70,000.00.
I TOO ARE EMBARRASSED! IM EMBARRASSED THAT OUR ELECTED TOWN OFFICIALS LET IT GO THIS FAR WITH ONLY MONEY SIGNS IN THERE EYES.
I WOULD THINK YOU WOULD BE MORE CONCERN WHY CALEDONIA IS 5 OFFICERS SHORT AND HAVENT HIRED ANYONE. I WOULD THINK THE SAFETY AND WELL BEING OF OUR RESIDENTS SHOULD BE A PRIORITY NOT HAVING A WALMART BUILT..
JW MAYBE YOU SHOULD PURCHASE THE HOUSE THAT WILL HAVE THE TRUCK ENTRANCE NEXT TO IT SINCE YOUR FOR THIS WALMART, LET ME GUESS YOU WOULDNT LIKE IT EITHER. I BELIEVE THE RESIDENTS CONCERNS DID HOLD UP WITH FACTS.

Every town, village, city, and state is having budget problems, and Walmart says they'll pay over $4000 a year in taves to
the village, plus hire 150 to 200 employees. They aksi stress tis nnot a full-sized stiore and will be patterned after all the dollar stores that are raking in a lot of money and some of thier saml sales. Mt.Pleasant, also has LOTS of stores on Hy 31 and has no problems
with them and enjoy the income.... So I live in the city, also enjoy taxes ffrom numerous stores... This makes sense to me.
justdick

Pardon the mispelled words above, I proofread it before i hit submit and this how it came out,
Bi the way, I plan to move to Caledonia late this year and will enjoy a nearby Walmart, if it happens.
justdick

I, too, was disappointed with the rudeness of many of my fellow citizens last night. I understand that feelings can run deep, but we are adults and should be able express ourselves without shouting, chanting and making rude accusations. I would like to see a Wal-Mart come to this area, but I don't agree that this is the right location. In my "perfect world", they would buy the Kmart and Blockbuster buildings, develop over the Kmart site and out into the parking lot, knock down Blockbuster to expand parking. I would also like to see more of the store devoted to retail shopping instead of grocery. With Pick 'n Save and Piggly Wiggly so close (along with the market on Erie and the meat market on 4 Mile), I think we have a good selection of grocery options. I also don't think 4 Mile Rd. to the west of 31 is safe for high traffic.

I watched the sign ins before the meeting and was keeping an eye on yes vs no votes. At that particular meeting, it was probably 10 to 15% yes and the rest no... but, again, the news of a Walmart and this meeting is going to ressonate to the opposition way more than to those who are supportive and the numbers will skew due to that factor. I hemmed and hawed about whether to go myself, but in the nd figured I should go to make sure there are some people there you think "yes". If you think yes, you dont wear a ribbon or carry in signs... or have bucket of ribbons or handful of signs to hand out to people... and you probably dont even speak up when you know you are in the minority there. But, again, the minority in a meeting like that can still be the majority viewpoint of the overall village population. I just say, lets find out. If the majority truly proves not to want it... so be it... but if they say they want it... then let it happen. The land use plan is clearly too heavily residential and will need modifications eventually as Caledonia grows.

With all due respect Richard - please reconsider moving to Caledonia...move to Mount Pleasant or Sturtevant where you will be closer to an already established Wal-Mart and can enjoy it.

Heather - you are right, there is no reason to be rude - I think however, that the majority of the citizens being rude feel that when they have been nice in the past on such situations, the board has walked all over them and gone ahead with failing projects anyway. Many are also very angry that this seems to have been "sprung" on the Caledonia residents and do feel the board is selling us out for a few bucks. Showing that anger is their way of telling the board that enough is enough and if you won't tell Wal-Mart no, then we will. The community should be involved from start to finish on such projects and not have to feel that our board is going against the very thing that we set up to preserve our community. It leaves us little faith in that what these people say when they run for office is nothing more than pipe dreams to appease us and their agenda once they get elected does a total 180. Doesn't excuse rudeness but maybe it can explain it some. I personally hope it scares the heck out of the Wal-Mart committee and they decide it best to move on.

Do your OBJECTIVE research people. Wally World is well known for it's dirty little tricks. Not only to it's own employees but to local economies. Before Bush and company stole the 2000 election, Wally World donated so much to get them in the White(?) House that Bushco and friends blocked a class action suit brought against them by lawyers representing employees who had been used and abused. NINE states saw enough evidence to allow the suit creedence but in EACH case the "Renfield Class" in D.C. blocked it as effectively as Admiral McCain did the Israeli slaughter on the USS liberty. In addition, That corpration actually has people on the payroll that teaches their "working poor" how to bleed local economies' resources to gain access to benefits Wally World won't give them. Any of your local "leaders" that support these parasites should be looked at VERY closely.

JW - if there were that many people out there that HAD to have Wal-Mart here and were so for it then they would have shown up...period. The facts are that the majority of the people either don't care one way or another or don't want it. Nothing was skewed either way. Being as it was a public meeting everyone was welcome. I do think that a vote of the Caledonia residents would be in good order and save us time and money so we can see if the people are open to this as well as some other issues being raised. They would just need to answer Yes or NO to the following questions: #1 A Wal-Mart would be a good addition to Caledonia #2 Our current land use plan is sufficient for our village #3 Our village board is leading Caledonia in the right direction #4 Our current process of bringing in new business to Caledonia needs to change. 4 simple questions. The outcome of that voting would tell a lot.

MUCH better conversations on this string... thanks for keeping it civil. Sandy: wanted to point out that in the 11 years that I've been a journalist, I can say most of the developments I've reported on don't catch the attention of residents until the land is being rezoned or just prior to the vote taken for the developer's agreement.

BTW - has anyone seen the latest lawsuit that is being taken to the supreme court? Here is what 1.5 women are suing for...According to the plaintiffs, a common culture of sexism led to a pattern and practice of discrimination against women working at Wal-Mart stores nationwide. In their complaint they claim that, at the time the suit was filed, almost three-fourths of Wal-Mart's hourly wage sales employees were women; by contrast, only about one-third of its managers were.
Is this what we want to support here?

Polling Caledonia residents at large will not be effective.

The dense highly populated areas of Caledonia are just that - and those residents don't care as much about the open space. The Walmart will not effect them negatively (unless you consider the ethical costs, the wage costs, and the cost of further development - infrastructure, police, fire, etc). They just see it as convenience. They just hear the Walmart spiel, the "selling" points, the exaggerated positives, and the fear talk of higher gas and grocery prices. They believe that hype because they have no reason not to. Blinders on? Check.

Those effected directly by the proposal are the low density residential dwellers - obviously the lower population count. The people who have chosen to live in lower density areas, larger plots of land, access to trails and greenspace. These people have seeked out this lifestyle and want to preserve it. There is a strong vested interest in maintaining the area.

The Village Board has to decide who to appease? The high density folk who just don't care and will forget no matter the outcome, the low density folk who do care and whose lives will be forever altered by this and many of whom will leave (I know I will if 31 is developed and 4 mile; I deeply value the openess and residential quality of my neighborhood).

Ultimately, what option effects the Village the most?

Heather's idea is worth consideration. I would trade Kmart for a real Walmart focused not on groceries. The only thing I would miss out of that compared to a different location is the natural competition aspect as well as another area for restaurants to pop up there. Some of the mentality that people shouldnt come to Caledonia or should move out of it if they dont "like it" is a little disturbing. News flash: everyone who comes here contributes to the community and has a say. The majority should be the driver. I have been saying that all along. A meeting like the one last night may or may not represent the majority. I just say, let's find out. It is generally human nature and pretty obvious that a side who is opposed and angry typically shows up to a showcase like last night's in higher numbers than those who are supportive of the idea. One group will rearrange schedules to attend and spread the word and encourate others who feel like they do to show up, the other side is generally not doing those things. As more people move in to Caledonia, change really is inevitable. As the population grows it is natural that services to support the population will grow and many, if not most of those services, will not be on the I-94 corridor. Hwy 31 will remain a good location for retail growth as Caledonia grows. I am willing to be on the side of Walmart for the growth and I liked their plan... but if this were a Target being turned down, I would be far more disappointed.

JW - at what point do communities start thinking progressively about quality of life, ecologically and socially friendly development, culture and heritage versus convenience and cheap goods?

Look to communities that have lost those things that are irreplaceable. What kind of thriving community do you want 20, 30, 40 years down the road? Do you want a fantastic baseball club and pony club for kids? Or a string of retail and restaurants? Which really benefits kids? Which gives us memories? Serious question. At what point do we chose to value community, activity, experience, culture, and yes, nature, over shopping? Are we that shallow? That short sighted?

Oh but the jobs, right? What happens when the small businesses go under? Derangos on 6 mile won't be as busy with an Applebees, Panera, Taco Bell and Quiznos on 31 will they? And it WILL come to that. What about Brossmans, Ayra's, Nelsons, and all the other businesses? KMart will be gone; Walmart made that clear last night. Another blighted ugly empty building. Douglas Ave will be abandoned for the shiny new Highway 31 stretch!

For the record, I am _not_ "JW." I use my full name when I post, so people know where my comments come from.

Frank Gatlin:

5:16 of the video

"We talked about your water and it flowing into the river, WHICH I"M NOT QUITE FAMILIAR WHERE ITS AT...."

Hi everyone. One item I thought might be helpful for readers is to understand the Village land use plan. I've got a phone call into Julie Anderson, the zoning administrator for the village. While I wasn't part of the discussion when it was being formulated several years ago, I thought I'd take a look at how much land is zoned residential, commercial, conservation, and industrial; then point out as to what that means. Also, I plan on looking at how many people/who was involved in those discussion, and how malleable those plans typically are. Does anyone have any other questions about land use in Caledonia?

JW: yes, people were less than restrained at the meeting; however, they also seemed concerned that their opinions would not be considered, one of the most frustrating conditions to be in. If the Walmart proposal is a 'take it or leave it' proposition, only at the Hy 31 & 4 Mi site, then a wide sampling of opinion might be in order. However, Walmart is not interested in seriously disrupting even a sizable minority of opinion - we are their customers after all. Focusing on this one proposal would only raise the stress level for the Village Board Trustees, who would rather not split their community in such a polarizing manner. If you like confrontation and festering resentment, then go for it. I think we are not to that point. Think more broadly, please; how can we make a site along Hy 32 more suited to Walmart's desires? This will make a lot more people happy, more willing to shop there, and supportive of their Trustees. And make Caledonia closer to what many/most people want.

I think the area can support growth, incoming retail, and open spaces. It does not have to be a choice between one or the other. Lets have our baseball club, our ponies, and more retail as this area grows and progresses. Businesses with good products and services and good customer service will survive; bad ones will not. I am not sure how DeRangos survives... we gave them another try the other week and that will be the last try. They are not particularly friendly and their pizza and food is not particularly good, just to be honest. A place like that will likely be in trouble, whereas a place like Douglas Ave Dinner which has good food, good service and reasonable prices will be fine. A vote for more retail is not a vote against quality of life, culture, or heritage. Most of that kind of negative talk is simple grandstanding like the CCREP representative last night. We are a community like the Hartlands, West Bends, Muskegos. Commutable to Milwaukee but far enough away to retain rural attributes. We should retain that characteristic, but like those other communities, we can still support our own retail growth as well.

I think being short sighted comes from not planning and not motifying the land usage plan and not rezoning where it makes sense. If the majority preference is to not allow retail at the 4 mile location, I am ok with that. But I do not believe the majority is as closed to growth in Caledonia as those currently being most vocal are.

Folks, how Walmart manages their operation is not something we can influence by their choice of a site. How they treat or mistreat women, lower income people (you want a job? Then say "sir" when you speak to me, and use BadgerCare for health insurance), where they buy their product from, etc., etc., is all their business. If you don't like it, don't shop there. With enough friends, you will get through to them. Many people last night said as much, and maybe Walmart did hear. Maybe.

I desperately wanted to be at the meeting last night but was unable to be there because of sick hospital patients that needed my attention. I am sorry I missed the discussion and I am now playing catch-up. As a Franksville homeowner, the proposal doesn’t affect my family as much as neighbors living by 4 Mile and Hwy 31, but I hear people’s concerns on both sides: the need for good-paying jobs while maintaining the rural flavor that makes Caledonia so special.

Heather, your idea of replacing Douglas Avenue K-Mart makes sense... but does anybody know for sure whether K-Mart owners want to close their store? Apologies again for being out of the loop, but it seems presumptuous for non-owners to propose closing K-Mart if they're not ready to do it. (I’ve always enjoyed being a customer of Douglas Ave K-Mart.)

Has anybody picked up a phone and spoken with Nelson’s, Millaegers, Kortendicks and other local business owners? Let’s not forget the people who have been providing anchor jobs for so many years.

JW,

You said the idea of Wal-Mart near I-94 is weak. How so? Does anybody doubt a Wal-Mart by the freeway would be better received than the Hwy 31 - 4 Mile Rd location? I doubt the rancor would be anywhere near what was heard last night.

An I-94 Wal-Mart would create a virtual monopoly on northbound Interstate traffic entering the busiest corridor in Wisconsin. Located, say, north of the Hwy K Pilot Station & Arby's, it would require minimal road modification, and it would produce vastly fewer objections about habitat preservation and neighborhood change. The Hwy K-I94 location would space Wal-Marts approximately equally between Sturtevant and Oak Creek. Sparse local housing density would be amply compensated, I believe, by freeway customers who would bring revenue into our Village rather than just redistributing sales from existing stores. That seems a win-win for Caledonia taxpayers, future employees, and existing Village businesses.

Of course an I-94 Wal-Mart presumes landowners' willingness to sell their property. I haven't spoken with any of the Frontage Road landowners, so I can only imagine their reaction. Pilot station / Arbys and A&W management would likely see dollar signs from a nearby Wal-Mart. It’s not as if the noise and pollution would be noticed much beside the freeway tumult. So, JW, why is it such a terrible idea?

David Drake, MD

Denise,

Those are all good questions. The only other ones I would ask them would relate to how the Village assesses overall citizen viewpoints. Do they do anything to try to get a broader feel? Maybe with the level of hostility on this particular issue among a set of citizens it is enough to forgo Walmart's plan this time, however, does that make a precident to stop future progress everytime a that set grandstands about it? I would hope the village is doing something to seek majority opinion. I am unsure of how to do that in a comprehensive or accurate manner. Even just having a non-binding local resolution or question on a future ballot would be something, though would also be limited to only those who vote in a given election.

The issues specifically about Walmart as a company are certainly worthy of discussion... but some have said straight out that it is more than just about Walmart and they are generally going to be compelled against most change, be it Walmart, some other retail option, widening of 31, extending of 794, etc.

There is no reason everything has to be on 32 or beside I-94 and, as some of us have pointed out, 32 does not lend itself well to growth just by how it is already built up and has restrictions from proximity to more densely populated areas and the rail route. I think 6 mile and 32 might be another alternative retail area, but it would have a drawback of being less centrally located.

A quote by JW from a previous blog:

"Those supposedly worring about the trashy look of a Walmart then filling their yard with big gawdy signs still seems odd to me."

Supposedly worrying about the trashy look of a Walmart?

I urge anyone to go to www.CCREP.org and view the photos available under the "Walmart Neglect," "Walmart Cleanliness" and "Migrating Trash" tabs.

Writing only for myself and my family, an I-94 Walmart would be far more likely to receive our family's business than a Hwy 31 Walmart. I wonder how many others feel the same way?

The broker last night did his homework, and apparently did look closely at Douglas Ave. But he started with the assumption that he needed 19 acres minimum (a square 910 feet on a side) to build on, in a location where present owners could all be purchased. It also must be about 1/2 way between Sturtevant and South Milwaukee, and on a 'trunk' road. What can we do to help them locate such a site, which presently does not appear to exist?

Can we work out a scheme to reduce the 40% green space surrounding the store? This would reduce the space requirement to as little as 705 feet on a side. Maybe they would consider the economics of a yet smaller store. Maybe if they put a large park out back on land that is too wet to build on, they would have the 40% green space _and_ space for the store.

I'll bet there are some people living along the widened Douglas Ave who would be just as happy to let their land go commercial so they can move to a quieter location. Maybe a nice house near 4 Mile and Hy 31, set well back from the road:) There may be some businesses along Douglas who would be willing to sell out, so a large enough lot would appear.

My point is: Walmart claims they are flexible. Many of us claim that we can tolerate or appreciate a Walmart on Douglas Ave. So let's work on it. What are some ways that Walmart gets what they need, and we get what we want? Would you rather we all get most of what we want, or have a big juicy confrontation?

JW,
In my conversations with board members, they are very aware of the silent majority. But I think you have made an interesting point. I'll put that down as a possible follow-up story.

JW: Siting Walmart at Hy 31 and 4 Mile shreds the Land Use Plan. Whether or not you participated in its development, please be aware that the Plan resulted from a large amount of citizen participation, in addition to a Village Board vote, all less than 5 years ago. Many people in Caledonia did in fact move here because of the 'intangibles' of the location and community. The Land Use Plan and zoning ordnances express those intangibles in written, legal form. If Walmart is able to change the zoning from 'low density residential and agricultural,' to 'commercial,' that will tell all of us that our home values and our lovely locations are not safe from destruction. If you insist on placing an absolute monetary value on everything, then all of us should trot over to the Village Hall and request a reduction of $1,000 to $50,000 on our home assessments, with a concurrent reduction in tax payments.

We put that Land Use Plan into place for a very good reason; do not mess with it lightly. Make sure the Village Board knows that they cannot mess with it lightly. There is room in it for community growth of all kinds, including commercial and manufacturing as well as homes. By that plan we said that Caledonia was not going to become Mount Pleasant or suburban Waukegan. Walmart's proposed site does not fit into what we envision for our community. Another site could. _Use_ the Land Use Plan and the zoning that goes with it; don't kiss it off.

Or don't care. Apathy is not a decision. "if it doesn't effect me..."

I have lived in Caledonia since around the turn of this century. I do not ever recall hearing about the land use plan a few years ago when it was drafted. Maybe I simply didn't notice back then. I do feel much of the time those things are being organized and coordinated by people with an agenda (hence why some are hyper aware of the plan where others, possibly deliberately, are not). Was it drafted by those who specifically want to keep certain areas around THEM green for their own benefit rather than as a real grand scheme? If that was going on to some degree of course it would be drafted as a broad plan so it doesnt look like being all about particular locations within it? This would make sense why some so loudly use "the plan" as a stopping point. I do in the past vaguely recall hearing some people grumble about how things in Caledonia are so heavily influenced and controlled by those who have horses or ponies, but I never really gave that much thought or credence. By the way, on the Journal Times site there is a poll about the Walmart proposal where the majority clearly favors it... which has been my suspicion all along. I definitely do not think Walmart would have to fear the notion that they could build it and no one would shop there. They might lose business from a few people displaced that make it a point to not shop there, but I think that would be a small set of people in reality and would be a common problem they must encounter every time they build.

David Drake - I can think of about $50 million reasons why I-94 doesn't work for Walmart, or the taxpayers of Caledonia, at least at the present time - the cost to extend sewer and water services to that area, which I believe Walmart requires. Since a Walmart would most likely be set up in part of Caledonia's TID, the increment value needed once that TID becomes activated far exceeds any tax revenue we'll see from Walmart. Now, if it could be incorporated with other large developments at the same time, I'm talking developments with a minimum value far in excess of Walmart, it might be an option to explore, but those developments are few and far between and usually won't even consider an area unless services are already there. As well, siting it at the freeway now puts it in much closer proximity to the Walmart on 27th street and probably a less attractive option to Walmart if their goal is the Caledonia/Wind Point demographic.

Some telling observations from the meeting yesterday.

I found it extremely disturbing that the developer Frank Gatlin seemed so ill-informed of the potential impact of his own commercial development that he was "not famliar" with the Root River's location.

This just shows how incredibly out of touch these people are with our concerns.

I also found architect Jackolyn Cook-Haxby's glib remark rather telling: "Kmart is on its way out [of business]."

This is precisely one of the concerns of Caledonia residents. If Walmart moves, the Kmart goes out of business, leaving a vacant property in its wake. No sales tax revenue, job losses, and another tax vacuum for the police to patrol.

To those people that would like it because its closer to them and the other stores are to far away.. Thats the worst excuse ever to have something. Get out of your house and take a trip to a store and see some scenery and culture on your way. How hard is it to drive an extra 5 miles or 15 minutes to go to a store. Get out and enjoy your day and drive. If its to far for you then you really need to think about where you are living and maybe find a place you can live that has the shops you want with in walking distance so you can't use that excuse anymore.

Also regarding the jobs.. Walmart hiring someone at the 12.85 payrate is charging a family over $70 a payperiod for health insurance. These people need to find extra jobs just to pay for groceries. If they can't afford the health care walmart tells them to go on WIC and welfare.

Also Walmart does not have security for outside the stores. They have all the security they want inside but most of the crime is in the parking lot. People have been kidnapped in walmart parking lots because security is not present at all.

Putting the store at 4mile and 31 would be a mistake. It would be a burden on the landscaping of caledonia, the police department, the fire department. It would run out all of the wildlife and would be harmful to the ecogological sytem surrounding the site.

My issue with an I-94 location at this point in time is I believe the bigger part of the population of Caledonia seems to be on the eastern side (including Wind Point). Why would a retail business build so far away from that population rather than a more central location? An isolated Walmart that far out would not appeal to those east of 31 much more than going to Racine or Oak Creek where they could hit other retail options as well. Obviously an I-94 location would be preferred by those who live in Franksville or the suburbs closer to I-94, it just wouldnt be the best for Caledonia as a whole. As population grows into the future, I would think a Walmart or Target at K and I-94 would be fine in addition to all the rest. I think there is a significantly bigger current population within a 2 or 3 mile radius of the proposed location than if it were at 6 mile or I-94.

It is up to the people of Caledonia to decide where this should be built. The Wal-mart real estate broker mentioned the need for 15 acres (roughly 900' by 900' ). Anyone have that size property on Hwy 32? He mentioned sites by the power plant would be too close to the Walmart proposed for South Milwaukee (on Hwy 32 across from AMF bowling lanes).

There are 61,000 people on the north side, all we have is K-Mart. K-Mart has not closed in Racine by the mall, Kenosha or Burlington with a Walmart near those stores. We need more stores on this side of town, the highest per capita income level in metro Racine is in 53402, not in 53406 by all the mall shopping!!

I think the Kmart comments were kind of taken out of context. There is competition between Kmart, Walmart, and T arget and they all are very aware of how well each other is doing and what each excels at vs the other. Kmart has been in trouble a long time... nationally. What is going on with Kmart is bigger than the local level and I think that is what they were getting at. It is very likely both Walmart and Kmart will survive and do just fine locally. Kmart may have to work a little harder, but it does have some location advantages due to the things around it.

As for the distance to drive to something, that is absolutely a real concern. Distance equates to time even more than money, gas, etc. Sometimes you need to just go get something quickly, and especially if the location is 24 hours, that would be an awesome resource for times it might be needed. Denying that is ridiculous. Not everyone has to live their life the way you live yours. The reason many of us do not go to Kmart for a serious shopping trip is because it is more expensive and doesn't always have a good selection. If I go to Pick N Save and need something quick, I would still go to Kmart... but when Kmart doesnt have what I want or I need something specific, another option in the area would be great. Look at most cities, they have a combination of various retail options that all do just fine. Caledonia has a population to support more now and in coming years it will still be growing.

Thought that some ONE might find this interesting.
You can be sued for publishing private facts about another person, EVEN if those facts are true. The term private facts refer to information about someones personal life, that has not previously been revealed to the public.
And is NOT of a legitimate Public concern.( Deleted OR not).
The Publication of which, would be OFFENSIVE to a Reasonable Person, writing about financial troubles could lead to Liability, for Publication of Private facts.
It was Highly offensive and NOT newsworthy pertaining to the Walmart matter. One would Hope it wouldn't be something you'd see on this site again .

Again the argument of convenience over quality of life. I respect people who choose to live in more urban or city areas for proximity to stores and dining, it fits their lifestyle. Why can't I be respected for choosing to live where I do, my lifestyle, and protect that choice?

Where is the respect? Do I have to keep moving further and further west to stay in rural areas? While "convenience" and 24-hr shoppers keep demanding more, taking more land, permanent changing the land, destroying the irreplaceable? Why can't it be contained per the Land Use Plan?

JW,

We can guess all we want about the impact of a northside Walmart on other northside businesses. Business owners themselves probably have a better feel for that question than most of us do. Why not seek their input?

While I don't pretend to know how far the average person is willing to drive to reach a Walmart, my suspicion is that fast-moving freeway drivers won't go more than 1/4 mile each direction for a Walmart; townspeople will likely drive somewhat further, especially if that destination is en route to somewhere they work or have other business. A Hwy 31 or Douglas Avenue Walmart won't appeal to ANY I-94 drivers, whereas an I-94 Walmart would attract SOME local residents.

Really the question is, where do you prefer the revenue coming from? -- from outsiders, or from Caledonians' own pockets.

Our town's amazing freeway access seems to be underutilized. Why not harvest some of those revenues -- not just via speeding citations.

Patch reader... I saw a post of you claiming the Journal Times poll numbers were not showing majority favor that I am not seeing in the comments here now. Did you realize your numbers were wrong? At 1:30pm, here are the poll numbers: 1819 support it outright, 173 support it only if it is small (which it technically is small enough to count these as a yes), unsure is 206, and against at current location is 343 and against overall is 1339. The percentages of YES (the first two) is just over 51%. NO (bottom two) totals almost 44%. It is still a majority currently saying YES... but more than that the polling points to a high enough amount of support to be listened to in addition to the opposition. We just don't wear ribbons, hand out signs, create an organization, and interrupt meetings, so we are harder to notice. Aka, Silent... (and possibly) Majority...

Well, you know what the saying about polls is: "Vote early and vote often." This JT poll is unscientific. The only poll that matters is at the ballots.

Silent = nothing to lose, and negligible gain.

Vocal = investments in property, lifestyle, conservation, character, culture, heritage and sanctuary on the line.

Anyone who moves onto a main highway next to a major city for the rural life should not be surprised if things change. Some might have moved here for it being rural... some moved here seeing huge potential for growth... in the end, the growth is going to come and the majority viewpoints are going to likely win.

I know the JT poll is not scientific but it does show there are many people who agree with me. This is why I said "possibly majority" in my last post instead of claiming it proved a true majority. It shows the majority of people who know about and respond to this poll online are currently saying Yes. The poll technique does have reasonable enough restrictions to count a vote only once from a location. The few people who would vote at every computer they can are probably going to be offset on either side but, yes, its impossible to deduce anything conclusively. Still, from my view, it does run counter to the notion that people who are against Walmart are some amazingly overwhelming majority and it supports my feelings that a meeting like last night is going to be heavily skewed to the opposition. Had it shown 90% against the Walmart, I would have taken it as a strong sign that I really am in the minority but I wouldnt have followed up by claiming it was an inaccurate poll without testing to see if it protects from multiple votes... which I just tested it DOES. Besides, the people far more likely to repeat vote are the more passionate ones... the "NO"s.

JW wrote: "Besides, the people far more likely to repeat vote are the more passionate ones... the "NO"s."

I detect faulty logic here. Where money is on the line, all sorts of passions come into play. Who's to say how many votes are coming from Bentonville, AK, from Bangalore, India, or anywhere else on this wired globe? The poll means NOTHING but web hits for the J-T.

This is but a local skirmish in a global war of ideas.

JW, no more trash talk from you?

Have you seen the pics?

Any comment?

Patchreader, which pics are you talking about? The ones Favre texted me? I know I didn't tell anyone about those.

As for the polling on JT, the people who think Yes who are in our area are generally not motivated by money in this. So then, David really believes the evil Walmart is out there voting in the JT poll (or maybe even outsourced that) to get the numbers to just barely cross 50%? I suppose its possible. I just really don't buy it, though I would not say its impossible. Again, I am not saying that poll proved a majority or some conclusive victory... but it does show a difference in the broader public that was very likely not in line with the percentages of No vs Yes votes at the meeting last night. I know some wont like what the poll says so far... but... trying so hard to discredit it is a little odd, even if pretty much what I would expect.

the Journal Times poll is NOT scientific and NOT restricted to Caledonia Village voters. It is useless as a statement for or against.

If it is about the pictures on this article, I am not sure what I am supposed to say about them. They are people... most of them against Walmart. I know... I witnessed it first hand. As for the useless nature of the poll... right now, it is the ONLY poll that we have to go on... is it the answer? No... is it useless? No. It still says something, even if not perfect. Maybe the JT can and/or will follow up with some location-based statistics later. I would like them to. I honestly what to know what as many Caledonia and Racine people as possible really think.

I am one of those "silent" people, not by choice but because I work 12hr days so i can live in the country not the city, if they would hold the meetings on weekends or later at night I WOULD be there.
In my mind if this gets build we will know once and for all who has more pull/influence/say.. about how and what gets done in/to Caledonia. The people or lobbyists; We know what the people want. What say the village?

And please stop bickering between each other and keep it on topic. Thank you.

Bickering with each other will do no good. The trustees on the Village Board are who you need to convince.

CONVIENIENCE: We have 4 large grocery stores within 4 miles of this proposed location. Is that really too far to travel. I am pretty sure the majority of the Caledonia residents drive past one of these stores 8-10 time a week.
JOBS: The FEW (decent paying) jobs that Wal-Mart will create will be offset by the ones lost to other business closings. The other $8-$10 an hour positions – well, maybe my kid can get a job there someday.

INCREASED TAX BASE: The $70,000 the Village receives won’t even be enough to employ another Police officer.

The people who live near this part of Caledonia most likely live there because of the atmosphere that this area brings. If Wal-Mart wants to park itself in Caledonia, park it where the affected residents want it. This is not that place!

but it WON"T be new jobs. The jobs created = jobs lost at other businesses. recycled jobs, perhaps.
Convenience? I think not. They didn't mention selling ANYTHING we can't already get in Caledonia or northern part of Racine.
Groceries? check. Produce? check. Meat? check? hardware? check. Garden supplies? check. Novelties and sundry supplies? check.

Kevin wrote: "If Wal-Mart wants to park itself in Caledonia, park it where the affected residents want it."

Agreed, but where do residents want it? So far only JW has weighed in on my suggestion of putting Walmart near I-94. I was thinking of sending a letter to the Board suggesting the I-94 alternative, but if that idea lacks community support I'll save myself the effort and just vote NO on this race-to-the-bottom company entering our Village. We already have enough access to toxic Chinese junk at the Three Mile Rd Dollar Store and elsewhere.

Jw, do you have any idea that you have been commenting since 6:30 A.M. ? No self respecting Caledonian would wait by his computer for hours at a time waiting to pounce on the next blog to come down the pike. You either need a job, Walmart on HY 11 is looking, or your currently working for an employer that has a liberal internet policy. By the way, are you the Jess Walsh I seen on channel 6 news last night? You got to be on the Walmart payroll.

WALMART asked for suggestions if this site on 4Mile RD and HWY 31 was something not wanted . Just a thought.
Isn't there land in our Commercial District on Hwy 32,available that would be large enough to accommodate just a Walmart store ,the size they want to build ? That would fit just their stores needs, parking, access etc.
Which in turn would still draw other businesses into the area?
But isn't it the Gatlin Developement that wants the larger parcel, so then they can in turn sell the frontage of the property to other businesses?
Why can't Walmart be a stand alone store, just this once. They would still be providing the convenience,they say that they want to for our community. Those that want to see the tax base grow, would. Those that want other options for shopping would have them. Those that want to preserve the green space could. It would be a win , win situation all around.

OK, maybe not for all of us, The Gatlin Company wouldn't be making money on the sale of the front of the property. It would just mean a little less in their pocket. It would help Walmarts image. Fairy Tale ending!

Let's face it, that one Walmart store is going to contribute more money towards our tax base than the 25 houses that will most likely end up there someday! Our services are going to be cut, taxes are going to go up. We need businesses in Caledonia. If they keep it tasteful and keep the store country looking, I think it will be fine.

why is it that when supporters talk about the tax revenues, they fail to deal with the COSTS that go along with it and the offsetting negative impacts that wind up making it a LOSE LOSE scenario for Caledonia? Selectively focusing only on the gross tax revenue without looking at costs and offsetting impacts in the community will lead to the wrong decision and once that is figured out, it will be too late.....that is why the commuinty developed a serious, long-term plan that got turned into the land use plan, so that all these issues could be weighed carefully in the absence of the kind of pressures being exerted by vested interests trying to force this kind of development on our community in a location that is clearly not right for it.

Hey Tom, I just kept an eye on this all day because I wanted to see what people were saying. Not a typical thing... just a topic I am interested in and an exceptionally busy day for the topic... and no, I have nothing to do with Walmart and I am not Jess. If I could pick what we get, I would choose a Target over a Walmart... Walmart is the consolation option. Brings up a good question... would some here be open to the idea if it were a Target instead of Walmart?

Is that all you people want to do is fight back and forth about this? Can't we come up with suggestion that everyone would come out a winner?
Has this become such a HATRED DRIVEN subject, that it's turning neighbors again neighbors. Haves against ,have nots.

Or is this just become a place, to VENT pure hatred for one another, your right I'M wrong or vise versa.
IS IT, THAT SOME WANT THE LAND USE PLAN ABOLISHED... JUST TO STICK IT TO OTHER PEOPLE?
Is that what growth in Caledonia Looks like . God, what companies or businesses would even want to move here, with that kind of attitude

Is this what we want here in Caledonia. Please, if you have not been, take a couple field trips to the walmart on hyw. 11. Look around, take a good look around. Is this what we want here in Caledonia? Garbage everywhere outside, inside very small children getting BEAT and tossed around by parents, people screaming at each other and speaking language I can not repeat. Random fights. A shooting in the parking lot. Constant police calls. On and on and then some. Is this what we want here in Caledonia?

David Drake - did you overlook my comments on I-94? I'll repost it: David Drake - I can think of about $50 million reasons why I-94 doesn't work for Walmart, or the taxpayers of Caledonia, at least at the present time - the cost to extend sewer and water services to that area, which I believe Walmart requires. Since a Walmart would most likely be set up in part of Caledonia's TID, the increment value needed once that TID becomes activated far exceeds any tax revenue we'll see from Walmart. Now, if it could be incorporated with other large developments at the same time, I'm talking developments with a minimum value far in excess of Walmart, it might be an option to explore, but those developments are few and far between and usually won't even consider an area unless services are already there. As well, siting it at the freeway now puts it in much closer proximity to the Walmart on 27th street and probably a less attractive option to Walmart if their goal is the Caledonia/Wind Point demographic.

David Drake - did you overlook my comments on I-94? Tried to repost it, but apparently this site won't let me because it's a duplicate? Strange..anyway, check it out at 12:35 p.m.

YEP, I GUESS IT IS.....LET THE PING PONG GAME GO ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks, Greta. I missed your 12:35 post between page refreshes.

My memory fails me about how far city sewer was extended during the 2006-07 Hwy K expansion. Was it all the way to Franksville Center? I remember huge concrete pipe being laid at my end of Hwy K near 38, but the road was closed to through traffic for most of a year. As I recall, the sewer ordinance covers Caledonia to the freeway. Perhaps this is time to discuss completing the pipe run.

Where does that $50 million figure come from? I remember various pipe costs being tossed around in 2007 but I don't remember reading about $50 million.

JW wrote: " If I could pick what we get, I would choose a Target over a Walmart... Walmart is the consolation option. Brings up a good question... would some here be open to the idea if it were a Target instead of Walmart?"

Most Target stores don't seem to require Police substations... so the overhead of a Target might be lower from the Village's standpoint. I'm not sure watershed issues or land use modifications would be easier with any other large retailer, though.

Caledonia's self image is a big part of what's at stake. We don't necessarily have to settle for the first bride that offers herself. Maybe it's time to do more dating before trying on wedding rings.

i do not think the question is about "what type of store" to put in the location. The problem is with the location itself. The land use plan carefully considered a lot of factors and determined, after years of consideration, that this should be a residential zone. The location is still right next to the Root River, still subject to parking lot run off of petrochemicals into the watershed, and still subject to the problem of 4 Mile Road not being appropriate for a serious big box retailer. Further, once one store comes in, the entire area opens up for development and we still wind up with destroying the land use plan, harming local property values, congestion, pollution, etc. Once again, a "win win' scenario is to find a location for development, whether for walmart, target or anyone else, that fits within the planning of the land use plan that the people of Caledonia worked so hard to develop and implement.

David, sewer in Franksville stops right around the Meadows restaurant at the RR tracks - not sure how far water goes. However, I believe the sewer for the freeway will be coming from Hwy 20 (Mt. Pleasant laid the oversized pipes to accommodate our capacity along the I-94 corridor) and we don't even have a water agreement yet with any municipality to service the area.

The $50 million is the rounded off estimate of a proposal from our consulting engineers and sewer district on what it will take to get sewer and water to our TID area, which is roughly Hwy K at V, west to I-94, and the I-94 corridor north to about 5 Mile. Final numbers, including a fee to Mt.Pleasant, could be closer to $60 or $65 million. That's Caledonia's prime area for future development because there are no (or fewer) environmental corridors to hinder development and where a Walmart would most likely be located.

As I mentioned in the earlier post, unfortunately the increment value of a Walmart alone would be minimal in comparison to infrastructure costs for which the village would bond, leaving the taxpayers with a rather substantial bill and more than negating the purpose of adding the taxbase in the first place.

The sewer and water extension has been analyzed and discussed ad nauseam for last few years now, the problem remains how to fund it. The huge (now defunct) development proposal at K and V was supposed to kick start it - now they're looking for a plan B.

How can Walmart allow this?

http://www.ccrep.org/images/Walmart_Neglect.pdf

Does Caledonia want this?

For those who werent at the meeting and only get their info through CCREP propaganda, let me add to the discussion of Walmart Neglect and images from Sturtevant:

1. The Walmart rep mentioned that they find the area around any given store reflects the issues in cities or neighborhoods near the store.
2. Not all Walmart properties are owned by Walmart. Sometimes the actual building and grounds are owned by someone else, which they said is the case in Sturtevant.
3. The Caledonia Walmart would be a smaller neighborhood Walmart where the land and building will be directly owned by Walmart and would be comparable to the new Muskego or Mukwonago Walmart (I forget which one they mentioned). When the land and building is Walmart owned the rep mentioned they get much higher attention from Walmart overall. They also mentioned this style of store gets upgraded materials and architectural attention.
4. Walmarts farther away from the problem areas have much less problems and are much cleaner properties because of that (as brought up by many shoppers of those Walmarts).

I think the only thing to really ponder is if the same trouble makers that cause problems at the Sturtevant location will end up going to the Caledonia location as well or instead. It certainly is impossible to answer conclusively, but I really doubt they would travel farther and to the smaller Walmart.

I am sure I will be accused of working for Walmart, again. But it is just that I LISTENED...

I support Wal-Mart coming to Caledonia.

In general I think the opposition is making a much bigger deal out of this then it is. I have a friend that lives in Rockton, Illinois which is right across the Wisconsin border from Beloit. His family lives in a very nice, new sub-division right next to a nice, new Wal-Mart. No garbage fires, immigrant gangs, kidnappings, police raids, prostitutes, or anything criminal whatsoever. Actually is a pretty nice, quiet, sub-division and a great place to raise a family, with the convenience of a Wal-Mart nearby.

Caledonia is a nice community that is terribly inconvenient to live in. I live within 2 miles of the K-Mart and Pick'n'Save and they are both nearly useless. The quality, price and selection at K-Mart all leave something to be desired. I have stopped shopping at Pick'n'Save due to severe quality problems with produce and dairy combined with their high prices. On three separate occasions I personally informed the store manager of significantly expired dairy (1-2 weeks past expiration). Woodman's in Oak Creek is a 15 minute drive and I hate shopping there because of how busy it always is but the combination of price and quality make it worth the extra drive. Both stores need some competition to improve or need to go away.

I say let Wal-Mart bring development and construction dollars, jobs, tax revenue and convenience to Caledonia as I think we have a plenty of empty farm fields.

Empty farm fields? How do suppose they are empty? They generate a LIVING for the farmers that cultivate them.

Look, we aren't talking about a Walmart (and the eventual further development) neighboring a subdivision, condos, or office buildings. It would be abutting long term low density residential and agricultural properties. See how it doesn't compute?

At what point do we all take a PROGRESSIVE forward thinking stance and smartly develop our communities? Think of downtown Racine. It faltered because of urban sprawl and spread. Now, with progressive thought, it is slowly creeping to life, but won't ever be what it was.

Now we want to keep sprawling. When is enough enough? And we learn to preserve?! Before everything irreplaceable is lost.

My fight is a personal one. I live on a heritage property "behind" the proposed development. My road will overflow with traffic once the development spreads. It will be unsafe to bike, walk or ride along our country roads. I can see a bleak future.

Greta, Thanks for providing further details about the sewer issue. Clearly nobody wants to shell out $50-65 million Village dollars to have a Walmart at I-94. It would take more than one store to make that size investment pay off, and I doubt my neighbors want the entire freeway strip looking like Gurnee, IL.

Erin, I for one don't want to see your paradise spoiled. I can only imagine how angry I would be if somebody proposed putting a Walmart in my backyard. I was trying to keep an open mind about alternatives to the initial Walmart proposal. Now it's looking more and more like the only reasonable alternative is "NO."

Patrick, I don't feel your pain. There's a beautiful new Pick-N-Save three miles away on Spring Street at 31, and an equally beautiful (if somewhat expensive) Piggly Wiggly on Spring Street and Newman. Both stores carry excellent produce. Tell the Douglas Avenue Pick-N-Save Manager you're thinking of switching to one of those competitors, if you like. I hear your concern about the Oak Creek Woodmans, though -- way too busy!

Patrick, no way! You joking? You say it is terrible inconvenient to live in Caledonia? There are stores all over surrounding us. That's why we moved here.

@ JW - Just because WalMart SAYS they will own this store doesn't mean they won't sell it later.
@ JW - I hardly think that part of Mount Pleasant/Sturtevant is a high crime area; comparing police calls at Regency Mall to WalMart Plaza might be a fair comparison. Data, anyone?

to all - $70,000 tax revenue will barely cover additional expenses. Realize that's not really $70,000 more; those properties are already producing revenue. So maybe it's $60,000 more.

It's about the type of community we want ten and twenty years from now - AND what we're willing to pay for it. I refuse to accept t the inevitability of strip malls from Six Mile Road to Mona Park Road. I support the LandUse/Zoning.

what i put in the other article regarding convienice

If you can't afford to drive 10 miles to go shopping then you shouldn't be shopping or you shouldn't live in a place where you need to travel for goods. If you want to be green, well then get someone else who doesn't want to drive that far because of gas prices or its not in their backyard and carpool. Make some friends while you car pool. Because if you don't like to travel more than 5 miles for anything, the chance is you are very isolated and need some sort exposure to the world. And the excuse of well 24 hours is convienient..if you need to get something at 2am well then you were unprepared and you need to have better time management or be more task orientated.

I wonder what the age of people are that think it is to much trouble to drive 15 minbutes to go shopping!

there is actually a very simple "win win" scemario possible. Those who find Caledonia too "inconvenient" or "too rural" can move down the road to Mount Pleasant where they have immediate access to any store they want, and any restaurant they want. Those who want to stay in this backward, rural, quiet, clean and pastoral setting and who don't mind having to drive 5 minutes to get to shopping can stay here and live with the current land use plan that the Village adopted after extensive study and review several years ago. Everyone gets what they want. Trying to force those of us who live here because of the pastoral setting and the current land use plan to have to accept radical development is unfair and is a "lose lose" for those individuals.

san - so right. The wonderful balance we have here in Caledonia is a precious and quickly disappearing one. Where else is there access to lakefront, river access, trails, equestrian community, conservation, heritage culture, small town downtown, accessible shopping and dining, and open land? All with easy access to the interstate and big cities.

This is a delicate balance. One that will be LOST permanently once we change the Land Use Plan and rezone.

I don't know of another location that offers this; if I did I might consider moving - but to only to be faced with this same fight against unnecessary wasteful urban sprawl.

All for what? Shopping, negative tax revenue (the open land in question saves the Village more money than development earns).

If only every one would live the way you do, right Chris? And certainly the desire for more local services is purely due to people either being lazy or regularly unprepared. Awesome insight.

Only one group is trying to deny the other group something. Caledonia is full of green space and some incoming retail even at the 4 mile and 31 corner is not going to fundamentally change that. Lately as I drive up 31 I can picture what that Walmart area would look like. I think it would look nice and would make that area look better overall than it currently does. The people who are most affected are the ones who live directly in the location where retail appears, and SOMEONE will always be affected by that, wherever it appears. I understand why those directly affected in the location would be upset. I still think for the overall community that Walmart at 4 mi and 31 would be more of a positive than negative, especially based on distance from residents and accessibilty to a wide range. The more I think about it in that sense, the more I think it is a perfect location. One condition of it should be having to buy the two houses with the signs that are currently excluded from the plans IF those owners are interested in selling and at significantly more than fair market value. Then hopefully they would be able to find another location that is more in line with what they want and have some extra to work with in doing it. Who wants rural and lives on a State Hwy in a village?

So, Erin and San. If this one corner is "lost" to retail development through a change to the precious Land Use Plan (that I still do not know who exactly drafted up, but am sure it wasnt driven by EVERYONE in Caledonia) then everything good in Caledonia will be lost permanently? You better not go outside anymore... the sky is falling. Patrick is right, the opposition is blowing this way out of proportion.

the problem with the idea of it is just one little old store and won't change the community is that unfortunately THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE. WHEREVER a zoning change takes place, and along with it a major big box retailer goes in, all the rest inevitably follows like night after day. fast food restaurants, gas stations, traffic congestion, pollution, noise, and everything else. You are talking therefore not about just "one store" but what happens once the door is opened in an area that was specifically protected in the land use plan after a lot of review and planning. The problem with RANDOM development is that there are lots of "unintended consequences" and that is why PLANNING is done. You are just saying "throw away the plan, it is just one store" and you are not addressing all the inevitable consequences of that change and the impact on the whole community.

JW, Walmart brings with it other development. The neighboring homes would sell, 2-3-4-5 years down the road. The brand new, one of a kind Pony Club (for kids, offering community events too) would be forced to close its doors and sell as commercial development too.

Highway 31 would be developed from that corner to at least 6 mile, possibly negatively effecting the Hitters baseball club too at 6 mile, because the value of that property as maybe a Target in 5 years will be too great.

Then 5 mile road will need widening to accommodate, just as 4 mile will. The lovely farms along 5 mile cannot exist as viable horse properties once the development continues, and it will.

My own home, as mentioned, a heritage farmstead of 130 years plus, will be surrounded by condos and apartments, and dense subdivisions.

This is what happens. Open your eyes, look around, highway 38/howell was once big farms, the kohls in racine was once a large farm. Every large shopping district started off this way.

JW -If only every one would live the way you do, right Chris? And certainly the desire for more local services is purely due to people either being lazy or regularly unprepared. Awesome insight.

Yes! I think that most people that moved to Caledonia to get away from the city and enjoy rural life would agree! And yes the people that can't drive 15 minutes are LAZY! If that is you then you are LAZY! Plain and simple! You sit here and say we the people that are opposed to where it is being built are against services and business.. most of us are not against it! Open your ears and eyes! We are against the location! it is not the perfect spot as you say.. you look at it all the time and see the Wal-Mart there and love it.. well go down to the suburbs of Chicago and look around and see how great it is when everything is piled up on top of each other. I have lived in the city of Milwaukee, the suburbs of Chicago, the suburbs of Hartford CT and now here. I moved here to get away like most people do. To enjoy nature and not destroy it like you want to. Do you have no heart for your kids or grandkids or future generations that won't have any green space around? Are you for the destruction of the planet.. I bet you used to throw the old cellophane containers from Mcdonalds onto the street because you say..hey what do I care. Well most of us do care. If you don't like it move! Maybe its time for you to get to your retirement community where you can play canasta all day long!

local jobless numbers are just out and here they are:
Other area jobless estimates for January, February and February 2010, respectively:

- Caledonia - 3.8 percent, 3.8 percent, 4.1 percent.

- Mount Pleasant - 7.0 percent, 10.6 percent, 12.8 percent.

- Kenosha - 11.1 percent, 11.1 percent, 13.9 percent.

- Oak Creek - 6.7 percent, 6.9 percent, 8.8 percent.

- Walworth County - 9.2 percent, 9.5 percent, 11.4 percent

CALEDONIA without the walmart or other big box development has the LOWEST RATE by far. It is not Caledonia that is crying for jobs, it is all the other communities.....

One poster in this blog is a "plant" who works for walmart, going to each new store development. And tries to sway public opinion. I would not put it past walmart. They are focused on ONE concern, pushing walmart on people.

I support the idea of Walmart at the 4 mi and 31 location... therefore, I must be lazy and generally interested in every possible way to destroy the planet and/or hurt kids. Now that is some amazing logic. By all means keep going, because you highlight the overblown and illogical grandstanding of the CCREP group better than I can.

I was talking with someone about this issue yesterday and they talked about a Walmart that went up in Appleton years back and how the farmers and neighbors were all up arms; one group had some rural shooting range around there. In the end the Walmart came, all in the vicinity were either directly compensated WELL and made out for the better and were able to relocate their interests and also pocket a profit or sold a little later after property values increased. It did not lead to urban bight or the destruction of that area of Appleton.

Even with the "residential" zoning, all the fields directly off of 31 might end up subdivisions in 10 years. At some point the Pony Club might decide to sell at a profit and buy another patch of land and in the end could come out even better by having it in a nearby location more in line with the rural aspect that is sought. Baseball fields can easily move to a new location as well if it ever makes sense. Some things may have to (or be rewarded or inspired to) move at some point as Caledonia grows. Things do not have to completely disappear due to change, and growth is not a terrible thing.

Yeah, just like the polls on Journal Times were "rigged" yesterday when they showed majority favor the Walmart... now people here that disagree with the opposition to Walmart must be Walmart "plants". I just want more options on our side of town. It's not even directly about Walmart anymore, it is about growth and development, Walmart being the current willing option worthy of consideration.

Anyway... when the going gets rough or your "facts" are met with counterpoints or don't win everyone over... bring out the conspiracy theories or bash people as being anti-planet or lazy. Keep it up, it is entertaining comedy... but counterproductive to your side...

So because you say so everything has to be moved. Everything can be bought and everything is all good. You are such a piece of garbage thinking that. People are happy where they are and with what they have in that area. Subdivisions would be a lot better than walmart. I bet it would bring in better tax revenue anyways. There would still be less crime, less light polution, less possibility of water contamination since walmart is known for violating the clean water acts.

And congrats to Appleton! We are not appleton..if we wanted to be appleton we would live in appleton.

The Pony club is a great thing for children. It gives them a hobby and encourages them. Now you want to move it or destroy it so you can go and get your ensure and depends closer than 15 minutes away. Are you afraid of having an accident while on the car ride over there?

You say move everything that is in support of the future. The pony club, any ball fields. So what happens in the time when you are moving them and the children lose intrest because they don't have the access to them at that point.

JW I really want to know your age group. I am in my 30's and want to raise a family here. I want my children to be able to enjoy nature and the open space. There are plenty of other spaces that would not destroy that in caledonia. Again I am not against having a walmart. But that location is not the place to build it. This walmart will destroy the future of our children and the dreams of many people.

@JW about the Land Use Plan - yes it WAS drafted by everyone - everyone who wanted to be involved. Each section of the community had its own set of meetings. These meetings were announced by mailings, and by strategically placed sandwich boards. The Planning Commission met with folks from all sections, soliciting information about what people wanted each section to look and be like. Each section had meetings over a period of six to possibly twelve months. (We participated in meetings for our section.) When each set of meetings was complete, the plans were assembled into a cohesive whole. There were public meetings and hearings on the completed document. Only then was it approved by the Board. Perhaps you didn't live here at that time, and so you didn't know. Did you investigate the zoning in the community before you moved in?

i have no objection to exchange of ideas. i try not to accuse anyone of anything and treat each individual participant in this forum with respect. i however do intend to point out major factual issues.

Journal Times Poll: there is a difference between a scientifically and statistically valid poll and any of these "newspaper" polls. This poll has NO scientific validity and does not therefore help or support one side or the other. NEITHER side should be able to rely on this poll as an effective gauge of the community sentiment as i tried to point out yesterday.

It is not valid for several reasons:
1. it is not restricted to Caledonia residents who are the community that is trying to make this decision. Therefore, there could be voters from anywhere (even Bensenville Arkansas) chiming in. It COULD be rigged. On the same token, even if it is NOT being formally rigged, by including voters from Racine city, Mount Pleasant or other places it does not give us any idea of what Caledonia residents feel about this.
2. it does not control "one person one vote". While it does not permit the same log in to vote twice it does not prevent one person using multiple different log ins from voting multiple times.
3. not everyone concerned reads the journal times online, so it is not a statistically valid sample of the actual community affected, but only those who happen to also have computers, go online, read the journal times and find the article and then choose to vote.

Does JW even live in Caledonia? Does he or she even live by the affected area?

it is being suggested that we need to put in the walmart despite the land use plan the community developed at great effort to protect the community's long-term quality of life. and then, anyone who does not like it should "move". the pony club should move. the ball club should move. the people who like rural or quiet settings should move.... what is wrong with this picture? these people and facilities were here first. they agreed on a land use plan for our community. others have moved here who appreciated and supported this land use plan and community. we have no reason to either be forced to move or to accept the walmart in an area outside the land use plan criteria. why should everyone else have to move for Walmart? That is really backwards. It is unfortunate that the desire of a community to be left in peace is being held hostage by this kind of aggressive development desire by a multi-national corporation.

Chris and San, I don't know who you are but you've made your case very well. I came to this discussion trying to keep an open mind until everyone's opinion is vetted. I've been persuaded by you and others that this offer is not a good one for our Village. Leaving aside negative Wallyworld imagery, this company just doesn't seem a great fit for our community on so many levels.

Melissa, I know your husband and I would be happy to substitute an Apple Store at the corner of 4 Mile and 31. Ha, ha! -- just kidding, there's not much chance of that.

This thread grows weary. I suggest we move to today's Patch article for further discussion.

Regards to all.

Who is going to clean up the Walmart trash bags that blow into the neighboring properties?

http://www.ccrep.org/images/Walmart_Migrating_Trash_01.pdf

Is Walmart a responsible company?

They leave hazardous cintitions at their abandoned properties (i.e., the abandoned Kenosha Walmart store located at 4404 52nd Street. See for yourself.

http://www.ccrep.org/images/walmart_blight_01.pdf

Will the Caledonia Walmart end up with a trash-filled parking lot?

http://www.ccrep.org/images/Walmart_Cleanliness.pdf

Per JW:

"1. The Walmart rep mentioned that they find the area around any given store reflects the issues in cities or neighborhoods near the store."

Is the area surrounding a given store the cause of leaving a store sign in disrepair?

Is the area surrounding a given store the cause of leaving potholes in a parking lot unrepaired?

Is the area surrounding a given store the cause of careless cardboard and wast disposal practices?

Is the area surrounding a given store the cause of leaving dangerous, large concrete chunks laying in a parking lot for no fewer than 3 weeks?

What if a local parton ran his/her car into the concrete chunks? Who is at fault?

http://www.ccrep.org/images/Walmart_Neglect.pdf

Per JW:

"2. Not all Walmart properties are owned by Walmart. Sometimes the actual building and grounds are owned by someone else, which they said is the case in Sturtevant."

Assuming the above statement is true, how does that explain the Sturtevant Walmart's negeltful practices in disposing with wast and cardboard. Such a responsibilities lies with Walmart, regardless of building ownership.

The photos of Walmart's neglectful waste disposal practices don't lie. What residential neighbor of the Calidonia Walmart location wants to see such images?

I wonder if Walmart has looked at the open field on the corner of 4 mile and N Green Bay Road-it might not be big enough? How about on the north side of 4 Mile between 32 and 31, there is plenty of land there that has already been cleared for farming? It is up to the people of Caledonia to decide what is the best site. What are people thoughts about either of those sites?

People might be interested to know there was in fact rezoning done in 2005 near the proposed Walmart site on 31 and 4 mile, it was for: The Pony Club. This information is from the Caledonia Unplugged blog:
From the 01/05/2005 Planning Commision Meeting Minutes

7c. Rezone from R-2 Suburban Residential Dist. (Unsewered) to A-2 General Farming & Residential Dist. II/to allow development of an equestrian facility/west side of STH 31, approx. 1950’ south of 5 Mile Rd./Racine County Pony Club

Thanks Jeff. That is what I speculated/heard. That the "land use plan" was a bit of a "Land Use for Ponies" plan which would then make sense as to why I do not ever recall any invitations or solicitations for feedback on a land use plan back then. What I do not get about the supposed bad look of a Walmart (even if they stacked crates poorly behind the store) is how that back side of the store, assuming it would be messy from time to time, is worse than how some of the properties in that area look right at this moment. The lot with the old house on it seems strewn with things. I am not sure if what is around it is garbage but it looked like a mess when I drove past it this evening. As for a site between 31 and 32 on 4 mile, that sounds worth a look. I am not sure if there are any potential issues or problems there, such as needed road work. You are saying around where the Mosquito Inn is? That wouldnt be a terrible location, but still, something commercial is going to be on that 31 and 4 mile road corner eventually. It is too prime a location. The other thing I will add... there is nothing about that Pony club that looks nice either if we want to talk about architecture/look/boxiness. As for Walmart trash, is it not impossible for the village to set standards/rules with Walmart that have fines attached? So if they do leave things trashy or unkempt, the city can impose fines? I think much falls on Walmart, but also on the city and the manager of the store.

@JW please read my post of 3:15 about the origins of the land use plan. It was not a "Land Use for Ponies" as you rather snidely state.

There have been a number of exceptions granted, regarding easements, size of outbuildings, distance of buildings from property lines, and many others since the PLan was adopted. The Pony Club's exception was one of many. So you see, the Zoning is "updated" with exceptions from time to time. None of them changed the character of the plan as this big box will do.

Jeff - I think there are some other areas they could look at, not sure they'd be as attractive to Walmart, but might be more palatable to citizens. Unfortunately, we set aside so few areas for commercial development in the Land Use Plan, I can't imagine that aren't going to be amendments at some point. Are you talking about the area on 4 Mile just west of the railroad tracks? Some of that land is going to be eaten up with the overpass and expansion to 4 lanes. If that's not the area, I can't picture what you're suggesting. Guess I could go look at a satellite image!

Per JW:

"....the supposed bad look of a Walmart..."

Sure,

the supposed sign in disrepair that reads "_utdoor Living."

the supposed pot-hole strewn parking lot

the supposed concrete chunks in the parking lot

the supposed truck-damaged parking lot islands

the supposed tree in the island broken off at the base

http://www.ccrep.org/images/Walmart_Neglect.pdf

All just mere figments and propaganda...........according to JW.

BTW, JW "prefers Target" (how many times have we been reminded of this?) so there is NO POSSIBLE WAY he/she is a Walmart plant who is paid to perform Walmart damage control on the blogs.

Greta-
I drove on 4 Mile today, it is mostly open space on the north side of the road in the area from just west of the railroad tracks near 32 all the way to within 1/4 mile of Hwy 31.

I keep hearing about these trout ponds. Do they raise trout over there?

Let me start this by saying that the proposed Wal-Mart on Hwy 31 and 4 Mile Road does not impact me directly except for the added traffic congestion which will result on a corner that I travel several times each day.

I wish to let the Caledonia Village Trustees know that I am totally against the idea of changing the zoning in that area for the reasons listed below:

First, we don’t really need a Wal-Mart at that location. There are enough Wal-Marts within easy driving distance for all of Caledonia. If people feel differently, maybe they should consider relocating to an area closer to Wal-Mart or propose a site nearer their homes. Most of us moved to this area due to the rural benefits abundant to us here. Deer and wildlife are very active along the river and many of us enjoy their presence greatly.

We don’t need a Wal-Mart because it will have an extremely damaging effect on local businesses already established. Instead of letting the road become a beacon for fast food, fast loan stores, and gas stations, keep to the Land Use Plan. We don’t need lights all night blocking the night sky, or the added salt and oil residue washing into the trout ponds and river just downhill from the proposed site.

We don’t need a Wal-Mart because in the final tally – it won’t contribute the hundreds of thousands referred to. The net for Caledonia is likely to be under $70,000 each year – less than is needed to hire two part-time police officers in an already short-staffed facility.
We don’t need a Wal-Mart just because “eventually” Hwy 31 will be four lane and MAY join Hwy 794. Think how great a little bit of country would look as you’re speeding by on the never-ending highway of life.

But, most of all, we don’t need a Wal-Mart in that area bordered by Seven Mile on the north, Four Mile on the south, and Hwys 31 and 38 to the east and west. It is unique for its trail system which easily traverses 30 – 40 miles of walking paths and equestrian trails. The homeowners along that old rail right of way have worked many, many years to build a system that is known throughout the Midwest as being a jewel in a world of urban sprawl. The National Pony Club of America recognizes the Racine Pony Club on Hwy 31 as being a very special facility for its access to those trails. The Caledonia Conservancy has put in thousands and thousands of man-hours in maintaining the trails.

Please consider holding onto this rural dream instead of allowing noise, air, and light pollution to degrade it.

The Caledonia trustees need your help to make the right decision for this area. Please call and let them know that you don’t want them to change the zoning for Wal-Mart. If you know of an area of about 15 – 20 acres that is zoned commercial or is more appropriate for development let them know that as well. Check out the web site for the Village and see for yourself how Caledonia is promoted to others: http://www.caledoniawi.com

So Walmart insists that it needs all of this land? Didn't they also state that this was a small neighborhood store that couldn't be any smaller? I am positive whether the latter was addressed, however according to the Greendale Patch, they are planning a store that is under 100,000 square feet on 76th St. there. There is a meeting in Greendale on Thursday night about the proposal there. Just a thought this land and store size might really not be necessary after all!

It would be great to share the tax burden with a company that has to pay 100 % of their school taxes instead of those who only pay 60% and want to run everything.

Maybe you outsource the jobs in the area to Japan.

Walmart Tax Revenue

According to Walmart's Attorney, the estimated assessed value of the proposed Walmart store, plus additional establishments (i.e., small box store, restaurant and possible out-lots) is between $10M and $20M.

For the sake of an estimate, Tom Lebak, Caledonia Village Administrator, used a $15M assessed value estimate to determine a resulting tax benefit to Caledonia.

According to Mr. Lebak, the $15M assessed tax base, using this year's tax rates, would produce $91,350 in taxes to the Village overall based on a mill rate of $6.09/thousand.

The number includes the Sewer and Water Utility District and the Lake Michigan Storm Water District.

Thus, about $70,335 of that amount would go to the general fund.

Sample Village Expense

Caledonia presently employs 31 full time police officers.

The 2011 Caledonia budget for police salaries alone (not including overtime or benefits) is about $1.9M.

$1.9M/31 police officers = $61,290 per officer.

IN CONCLUSION, THE ADDED TAX BENEFIT TO CALEDONIA FROM THE PROPOSED WALMART WOULD MERELY COVER THE SALARY OF ONE ADDITIONAL POLICE OFFICER FOR THE VILLAGE

Menomonee Falls has similar Walmart concerns regarding proposed same-size store, zoning changes and same developer.

http://menomoneefalls.patch.com/articles/potential-walmart-development-receives-cool-reception

Walmart is already the biggest employer in the United States, I wonder if our future is

THE UNITED STATES OF WALMART...aka CHINA
Work at WALMART, Shop at WALMART, pay Taxes to WALMART...protected by your Union, What Union,there are no Unions in United States of WALMART. Just think they could do away with the currency and just issue every one a WALMART shopping card.

Bumping this back up/ it was great drama!