J.B.
From previous conversations with you I got the impression that you have not served in the military. Please do not presume to talk for veterans.
Yes, most of us vets were proud to serve our country. What we didn't like was a vain and incompetent administration that lied about the reason for war, didn't send enough troops, failed to provide proper equipment, put incompetent civilians in charge of reconstruction and generally dragged out the occupation for the benefit of contractors. I haven't heard any anti-war liberals bad mouth us. Every one I have met has been supportive of my service. Even if they did bad-mouth me I would not mind if I knew I had fought for a worthwhile cause. My resentment is saved for the chickenhawks that got 4500 soldiers killed and 20,000 wounded for no good purpose.

@St Swithin
I assume you hold the same anger at Obama for continuing a war with no purpose?

@J.B.
You know what happens when you assume...
Kudos for ignoring everything I posted and trying to make this about Obama. This fits the pattern I have seen from you where you avoid discussing anything that doesn't fit your world-view.
So by what twisted path of logic would you think that if I was angry at the people that started a war then I would be just as angry with the people that ended the war?
And of course your lack of a response about military service confirms that you are just another chickenhawk.

The vast majority, are silent. You can surmise that means that they felt what they did on the ground was necessary, was virtuous, actually helped the Iraqis or Afghanis, that they feel great about it and would recommend their children do the same in similar circumstances... I am talking about people who were on the ground, in the fire, who did exactly what they were told to do.... and have made these public statements. I am not nor have I ever attacked any veteran of any war. My father is a veteran of the Second World War. I have good friends who are veterans. The soldiers are not my enemy.... the vast corporate and military structure that steers them, that indoctrinates them, that profits by their sacrifices while not risking themselves... that structure I have serious issues with. I take issue not with well meaning soldiers but with the Paradigm of War....
No one in that crowd was anti-vet nor anti-soldier...that I saw. I walked with vets from several wars. They were honored.

@St. Swithin
Ended? Are you telling me ending means the continued bombing of foriegn countries that weren't involved in the conflicts started by Bush? Are you telling me ended means simply pulling troops out when our military leaders don't believe Afghanistan is capable of sustaining itself? What exactly has been ended? Iraq? That only happened because Bush took care of it.

Bush used information that other nations also used. He received the blessing of congress (Dems and Reps) to engage in war. If you wish to judge all wars with hindsight, please tell me which war in all of history was fought perfectly? Which war was fought where all the intelligence was 100% accurate?

I did not serve, like the majority of the population. I also haven't been a teacher, doctor, welder, airplane pilot or astronaut; does that then mean I can't point out ignorance in those fields when I see it? You have never been governor and hence you should stop attacking Walker because you have no clue what is involved.

@J.B.
Blah, blah, blah. As usual you dance around and avoid the issues while throwing up strawmen to attack. If you are going to accuse me of saying things in the future please include an actual quote.
You are clearly ignorant of the reasons, planning and execution of the Iraq war. I recommend you look up 'Curveball' for starters. I expect you prefer to wallow in your ignorance, though.
Since you did not serve, don't presume to speak for veterans. If you want to discuss the war or any other topic I am not stopping you, but when you talk about the "vast majority of Vets" like you have a clue about us, be sure to preface it with "I did not serve".

@St. Swithin
Yet you avoid everything I have said. Typical liberal hypocrisy. Claim the high ground and belittle others.

I smell a rat here, St Swithin and his vast 'experience' of serving in the Iraq War. Fess up dude, you only play Call of Duty on your Playstation.

I am not discussing games. The one mentioned is a sick f....ing game btw...but that is the topic of other blogs. I wonder in what possible definition of the term, you get to your insult, "domestic terrorist," referring to someone who marched in a peace rally with people who are sick of violence, sick of war and want to see the massive outlays stopped that support these purely destructive actions. I can't guess at your rationale.

Alfred,
Have you ever posted anything intelligent? You have lurked around the Patch for quite a while now and I have never seen a word from you that would suggest you have any real knowledge of anything. You only seem capable of insults and hyperbole.
I don't own an X-box, but I saw quite a few soldiers with them when I was in Baghdad.

St Swithin, thank you for your service. Tho obviously on diff sides, I 100% support and appreciate your military service. Those who belittle military service should be ashamed.

My grandfather was captain of a sub chaser in WW1 and a Flag Officer in the Pacific in WW11. My dad a beach commander in the Pacific also. I grew up military and support ou troops. I was accepted at Annapolis. Military has the highest respect in my family. regardless of politics.

@Brian
How do you get peace? Peace only exists because of war or the threat of war. The world and human nature is imperfect; therefore, peace on its own is not achievable.

The same should be said for our current soldiers.

Absolutely.

This we agree on.

Thanks.... I really didnt know who they were...there were about thirty or so of them. I firmly believe that the only people in peace marches should be people who hold strictly to peace as the means. Personally, I wish they would revise their image...it is confusing.

Perhaps the police suspected them of being black bloc, an international anarchist organization that infiltrates protests, causes agitation, then escapes. They were responsible for the London riots awhile back. They are distinctive for wearing black hoodies with the hoods up to mask their faces.

I sorry, taking live ammunition and a knife to a politically charged demonstration, esp in Chicago, is just dumb. Be it an" oversite"or not, what did they expect the cops to do when they discovered the illegal ( in Illinois) bullets? Next time, clear out your trunk.

You get peace by staying out of their business, and not trying to buy their friendship. If they screw with us, then we should f them up bad. The rest of the planet will watch their entire country be leveled and learn not to f with the US of A.
No way should we build schools as a gesture of friendship in a foriegn land, just leave them alone.
We do not have enough wealth here to be the gift giver for the planet. Dubai is loaded with cash, they don't send a dime to poor countries.
We feed half of Africa. They live in a damn desert! Let natural selection do it's job. When Somali pirates board a US ship, they could care a less about our humanitarian aid.
Regan won the cold war. He didn't do it by kissing the Ruskies asses.
Bush had a shot to wipe out Iraq's troops who were in a traffic jam on the highway, but politics dictated this would be seen as shooting fish in a barrell. (desert storm 1)
We all know how doing the politically correct thing there worked out.
We don't have to be a bully. We will be respected if we let them do their own thing and when they cross the line and harm us- punish them. They do understand an eye for an eye.

So I 100% back our troops and you come after me with nasty claims about my "blanket support" ? Nice, just plain nice. I have no idea where you are comming from...but nor do I care.

Neil, its been a long time. I was glad to be able to converse with a number of these young ex-soldiers as we marched. I told them straight away that I was not a veteran but that when I was coming "of age" I began to pursue and ultimately got a CO status from the Vietnam War. I didnt do this with a college deferment or pull the married option like Dick Cheney (five deferments) and many others who promote war but avoided the draft. I did this by sending carefully written letters for over a year prior, to my draft board, first informing them that I was a Christian, and then spelling out the teachings that prevented me from serving in the Vietnam war, in any capacity, combatant or not. I was flatly rejected initially; of course, most of the members of the board probably were members of the Christian faith or some church, but, appealing it, getting letters of support from veterans (not my father or any of his friends), getting character references from my minister, etc. eventually I was able to get a CO status. You, I assume are much younger than me. You dont know the difference between a draft dodger and a CO....but its not a huge deal. I dont claim to be a vet nor pose as a vet. I am proud that as a young man I took what was a courageous step.

As I was there, I doubt seriously if you got a CO. Back then, nobody did. Draft Boards were extremely unlikely to issue any COs, just ask Ali. How bout some documentation of your CO if you're going to claim receiving one.

A relative, head of a nonprofit organization, would provide community service opportunities for COs during the Vietnam era.

I cant even begin with that one Neil. It speaks for its own myopia.

Any American who gets up in the morning better thank God the US is involved with NATO. Myopic my a@@. For the most part they get it right. And it's a cohesive and collaborative group whose ultimate goal is safety and world peace. but Brian is too self absorbed to see the truth. I'm truly glad we have intelligent people running this country instead of people like Brian. You imagine the country if Brian ran it? "Sorry citizens, no police or medical care this year because Brian gave the budget away to some middle eastern country to start a goat breeding program."

@Lyle. VA Hospitals, special housing loans for vets/military, job training, etc. We take care our military folks. Assistance is out there. But the image you paint is more fun, huh?

I guess "Ask not what your country can do for you......." doesn't apply to Lyle.

I salute that one Lyle. The list of "chicken hawks," is something I have printed in part...and is very telling about the extent of the patriotism behind these agendas. Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfram, top the list. Rush Limbaugh.... my god. Saber rattlers all but they had to rent the sabers.

Young men and women are compensated in many ways to fight for their country. Old retread flower children like Carlson and Rube here act as if our soldiers are victims...I suppose it is a part of the whole 'victimhood' scam these fellows believe in. Our professional volunteer soldiers know damn well what they face, they are adults and stop trying to speak for them you yellow bellied anti American thugs!

@Neil...It sounds as you don't have any firsthand knowledge of the VA and other veteran's benefits. Talk to veteran who are in the system and the quality and level of service. That's all I have to say about it.

@Alfred....You are so misinformed, your lack of knowledge is amazing.

So, Alfred, did you serve? And in what war?

@Lyle....and the other benefits? How about just serving your country and asking nothing in return?

btw - Lyle, what branch did you serve in during the Vietnam War?

Wow, Alfred is lit up today. Someone call him a cab.

@Neil...9 years US Navy, Naval Aviation, P3 Orion, two tours.

@Lyle. Got it. You saw no ground action.

No need to. I believe you. Unfortunately I lost too many buddies then, and was never even close to getting a CO. I must have come from a tougher state. Draft lottery # 58, whatda think happened to me ?

@Neil...You need to examine the bigger picture. The U.S. is the same as any imperialistic power pursuing their self interest. The Balkans are no different. The U.S. and our European allies interests were threatened by the regional chaos.

@Lyle. And other countries or people are different? They don't pursue things that are not in their self interest. Do you honestly think that? Every action a person takes is for self interest. You blog here because you need to feel intellectually superior to others, that is self interest.

It was a war sold on lies as were so many wars...the list is incredible.

100% agree with you on Vietnam War. That's why I marched in DC in the late 60s.

Never forget the Vietnam War was started by Dems (JFK and LBJ). Same circus, different clowns.

@Bewildered -- The roots of the Vietnam conflict are a little more complicated than that. Eisenhower and the French had their hand in it earlier when French Indochina fought for independence. Kennedy sent 'military advisors' to prop up the corrupt Diem regime in South Vietnam. Johnson escalated the war into the horror we all remember.

Trust me. I know all the details and history, esp living thru it. You could actualy go much further back. Vietnam has been invaded countless times over the centuries.

Having lived there for 4 months last year ( ho chi minh city, the old Saigon), it's amazing that 90% of the population is under 30 and not alive during our war with them. Very little animosity to Americns, even in Hanoi. Who they really hate is the Japanese from their invasion. Not great fans of the Chinese either. Beautiful country once outside of HCM City, which is the size of Chicago and mega polluted. Even tho tough for me to let go of my 60s perspective, I'd go back anytime. Old habits die hard, I must admit

Yes, Vietnam is one of those places that always gets trampled over by one army of people trying to get at someone else and vice-versa. Poland, the Balkans, the Holy Land, Armenia . . . Lots of invasions and lots of ethnic tensions.

It's pretty obvious you hold a deep hatred for folks in the military. Remember that it is the sacrifice that was made and that they continue to make that allows you to blog freely and act like a buffoon. As a veteran I have to chuckle at people like and Rube who never served, never sacrificed a damn thing, yet enjoy the fruits of those who did. Enjoy our bratwurst on Monday Brian.

Alfred:

If by 'Rube' you are referring to Lyle, you are mistaken. Lyle did indeed serve our country with his military service.

You're in fine fettle this morning, Alfred. And by the way, you ducked my question to you about your own military service, since you seem to be so loving toward the military.

Did you serve? And in what war?

Brian there's really nothing keeping you and like minded individuals from creating a celebration of your own, is there? That way you can be reasonably assured that there's no ulterior motive involved, such as the rampant promotion of militancy that you see as plaguing current, more traditional celebrations.

If by "fine fettle" you mean "fall off the bar stool drunk before noon", you are accurate.

@Alfred, Alfred Kell or whatever aka you're using...I find your lack of accurate information amazing. It gets tiresome with your constant ad hominem attacks, your straw man arguments,and your obvious amorality.From your writing rants and snarkisms, it fairly obvious that you are suffering from an anti-social persoanilty disorder, or in terms that everyone can understand, commonly called a sociopath.

With your obvious problems, probably originating from a poor upbringing and a lack of moral and ethical training; your parents would have done the world a favor by never conceiving you in the first place.

@Lyle...WOW! Your comment directed at Alfred: "your parents would have done the world a favor by never conceiving you in the first place.". I don't think I've read a worse slam then that on the patch. You're basically saying Alfred should not exist and are denying him human status.

I put it out there again, as I did above. How do you know this?
"perhaps mourning the entire war's occurence, the complete death toll on all sides, and the net effects of warfare as a method.... would be good"
Our world could possibly be nothing more than a speck of ash, if it were not for the wars of our past and present. We are talking about the entire human race here, not about a couple of monks, in a cellar, sampling their latest batch of wine.

@Brian. Your'e welcome. I'm a little bit suprised you didn't know that Africa was not a country. It's made up of many countries. Some of these African countries are not nice and are very warlike towards other African countries. You should read up on it.

We had no business getting involved in Libya. They had not messed with the USA since Clinton put a missle in MG's living room and killed his son. By squashing the dictator, we left the country open to the Muslim Brotherhood to take power.
We pretend Pakistan is our ally, give them money to lie to us. Saudi Arabia uses us, and we use them. The list goes on and on.
If we just stayed out of everything and used overwhelming force when provoked, we may actually be respected.

Brian, Just to be clear, are you against all wars past and present?
Hasn't the idea, of Bad Guys being people you can't control, been around for much longer than 40 or 50 years?

I can't think of any world leader being assassinated since the Carter administration.
I can tell you this: When American citizens protest our men and women in Uniform, when they protest at a fallen Soldier's funeral, it makes me sick. This is worse than treason to me, and I wish someone with PTSD would show up and take every one of them protesting turds out.
I do not like war- I hate it. This is why I support the hands off approach until we are violated- then it is time for: "Katie bar the door".
I wish i could stay and banter more with you on this topic Brian, but I have plans to visit the wall of the fallen soldiers whos sacrafice makes it possible for us to debate any topic.
Happy Memorial Weekend - Make sure to thank a soldier for your freedom.

AH, Utopia...I think Plato would recommend we start by ridding ourselves of all of the lawyers. Awesome plan Brian.

According to the Office of Veteran Affairs, many Vietnam era veterans suffer PTSD not for what they experienced in the battle fields of Vietnam, but rather as a direct result of the reaction they received when they returned home. The popular ABC TV show the 'Wonder Years' even went so far as to highlight this in a number of episodes. John Kerry's actions of demonstration and civil disobedience following his return from Vietnam in protest of the war only acted to encourage this kind of behavior. To my father and the real combat Veterans of Vietnam, the real (and even more reprehensible) enemy wasn't the North Vietnamese, but rather those Americans who treated him and his fellow Veterans with such disrespect, including the likes of Kerry and Jane Fonda.

There is a better way to demonstrate and stand for peace than to publicly deride, diminish, or devalue the service of our Veterans, which is exactly the effect of returning medals earned does. Especially coming from an all volunteer armed forces, such as those that fought in Iraq and Afghanistan were. If they don't like the concept of war or that which it entails, then why on earth did they ever sign up for military duty in the fist place?

Disgraceful in my honest opinion.

James,
Why is it so hard for you to distinguish between the soldiers and the war? The demonstrators were not "deriding" veterans. You ask "If they don't like the concept of war or that which it entails, then why ... did they ever sign up for military duty ...? That's a silly question. Most soldiers do not get to pick their war. A few recruits signed up after 9/11, but most of us were already in the military. We offer our service and our lives to help protect our country and our loved ones. What we ask in return is that this service not be wasted by engaging in a war of choice, against a country that was not a threat. We ask that when we go to war we are given the best equipment, manpower and support possible. We ask that we are given clear goals and guidelines. We ask not to die for political stunts and grandstanding. We got none of that in Iraq.

@James,
Please give a link to this Veterans Affairs study. I find it hard to believe Vietnam vets could shrug off Arclights and Agent Orange only to break down when a hippie yelled at them.

@St. Swithin -

"We offer our service and our lives to help protect our country and our loved ones. What we ask in return is that this service not be wasted by engaging in a war of choice, against a country that was not a threat. We ask that when we go to war we are given the best equipment, manpower and support possible. We ask that we are given clear goals and guidelines. We ask not to die for political stunts and grandstanding. We got none of that in Iraq."

What 'war' did our country ever fight out of forced necessity as opposed to choice exactly? And in those wars, what other nations or groups posed a direct and imminent clear and present danger against the sovereignty of the United States of America? The only one I can honestly think of is WWII against the nation of Japan. But why on earth were we ever involved in mainland Europe during that war, as Germany/Austria/Italy/Hitler never challenged our sovereignty or declared war against us, did they? Clearly, many in Europe supported Hitler and his agenda - it's what they wanted. Who were we to impose our will upon a sovereign people that had not declared war against us?

As far as equipment, manpower, goals, guidelines, etc goes - those have always been decision made by those in command of the armed forces, and not the soldiers on the ground, as history has repeatedly proven to us. If you feel this system of military strategy to be flawed, then again I must ask - why on earth did you enlist? I guess in your perfect world, we should have just nuked the entire surface of Iraq off the face of the planet, right?

I also guess, according to you, that the people of Iraq were not thankful for our ousting of Saddam and his regime. I guess all that news footage of people cutting down his statutes, burning his propaganda posters, and the like were all just a manufactured conspiracy of the right-wing news media machine, yes?

REALLY?!?!

@St. Swithin -

I'm not aware of where the report might be on-line, but I assure you, it does exist as Hoffa has personally read a hard copy of it. It was actually featured in the Military Channel's recent documentary on PTSD. Do some research and I'm sure you'll find it. Note that I didn't say that all Vietnam Vets were effected in such a way, but enough were that it made into a official report.

It's also a fact that my father, and most of those who served with him in the Vietnam War, felt betrayed by the antics of Fonda, Sutherland, Kerry, etc. Not to mention the draft dodgers such as Mr. Lehman (D), who is now challenging Senator Wanggaard (R) in the 22nd District recall. Utterly despicable!!!

Returning earned medals and making a huge public display of it is nothing more than an extension of this sentiment. It diminishes and takes away from the efforts of those who are still on the battlefields.

I'm no pro-war advocate, however, if you want to demonstrate for peace, there are much better ways to go about it, the simplest of which would be not to sign up for military service in the first place - pretty simple, right? Write a book. Tell your story. Write letters to your elected officials. Refuse to accept medals.

I know that you on the left seem to have an issue with common sense solutions to problems, and I'm sorry for saying this, but to return your earned medals in a large public display is something of low class, low character, and low patriotism.

Grow up and let's learn from the mistaken actions of our past instead of constantly repeating them.

@JRH...Germany declared war on the United States. Also, as a Vietnam combat veteran, I got a mixed response when I returned, but I also was part of the anti-war movement. During and after the war I was dealing with a number of PTSD vets and never did I see one that got traumatized by the return reaction. BTW, if you feel so strongly about it, why didn't you enlist and serve?

@Lyle -

I stand corrected as to Germany declaring war against us. However, even you must realize that such was only done in response to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and subsequent declaration of war against us being issued. It wasn't like Germany posed a clear and present danger against our sovereignty at the time it issued its declaration. I was more or less being emphatic to show the absurdity of Swithin's response.

As to Hoffa personally, I attempted to enlist in the airforce shortly after graduating from high school, but failed the physical (bum heart inherited from my mother's side of the family). Also, my father was of the attitude that he served so I didn't have to unless I wanted to or was called upon. My grandfather and great grandfather also served.

As a Vietnam Vet yourself, you had to have been horrified at the reception you received upon your return home. There were not ticker tape parades held in your honor, no dedications or memorials, and a feeling that the popular sentiment of the nation was somehow against you, unless of course you joined the anti-war cause, such as you did.

But for those Vets that felt that the war was just and right, such as my father, it was a disgusting and shameful reception from our fellow countrymen. There were many suicides caused by the feelings that such a popular sentiment generated, including one of my father's combat friends.

You must realize that there are better ways of protesting available.

@JRH...Concerning combat and any war, it is a every personal experience. The futility of an unjust and an unneeded war feels like a betrayal. You put your life on the line for what; so someone can profit! You'll never understand since you weren't ever in the situation. Those who know do not speak, those who do not speak, know.

@JRH -- Germany declared war on the US because of treaty obligations. If the US was at war with Japan, Germany had to follow suit. So why did we fight in Europe ( because goodness knows we had enough on our plates with the war in the Pacific)?

There have been some interesting alternative histories written about what might have happened had the US not gotten into the war with Germany. No one really knows how long it might have taken to defeat Hitler without us. No one really knows how serious their heavy water experiments were. They probably wouldn't have developed the atomic bomb, but . . . It's also possible that Germany's rocket program might have developed a rocket with intercontinental capabilities if given enough time.

My in-laws met while they were serving as medics in WWII. They both took part in D-Day and the European campaign. And this weekend we will remember my father-in-law's brother who was killed in Italy.

@Lyle -

While Hoffa has never personally experienced combat, I do understand how it's a very personal experience. However, you must also realize and understand that not all Veterans of Vietnam or Iraq feel that those wars were unjust, unneeded, or betrayed by their country for having fought in them. As you must realize the military is founded and survives upon a sentiment of tradition, duty, honor, respect, and loyalty. Anything that acts to diminish this sentiment can be taken by those who do believe in the causes for which they are fighting as treasonous acts of betrayal in and of themselves. Returning earned medals of valor and honor diminishes the efforts of those who remain on the battlefield.

Again, I will stress that there are better ways of protesting this situation, three of which would have been either a) not accepting the medals in the first place, b) returning them in private or at least without any wanted attention or fanfare, or c) not enlisting, as here we're talking about voluntary forces. But to make a huge public display out of returning your medals of service is no different than what Fonda, Sutherland, Kerry, and others did during the Vietnam era.

Not very American in Hoffa's personal opinion, and disrespectful of those still fighting and/or to those Vets and their families who take pride in their earned medals.

@Randy1949 -

"Germany declared war on the US because of treaty obligations."

Hard to say if that was Germany's reasoning for declaring war against us or not, as Hitler wasn't very good at adhering to treaty obligations - just ask Stalin about that one! I highly doubt that Hitler was fearful of retaliation from Japan had he not adhered to his treaty obligations of backing them against a declared enemy.

To our fallen heros and their service - let us never forget or diminish the sacrifices they made for the rest of us!

@JRH...How you feel about your service is subjective. The ones that I resent are those who manipulated the system to either avoid service altogether or who served in the Hollywood unit of the Texas Air National Guard. Those who served and protested should have the greatest right to protest. It doesn't diminish those who found the wars to be honorable and just. A military that is based on honor, duty and tradition is all fine and good but when you don't question, then you get the Prussian Military.

A good friend of mine was told on the plane home to get rid of his uniform asap as the soldiers were not being welcomed back. He cries as he recounts that. Many in the anti-war movement at the time made the critical mistake of confusing our soldiers for the enemy...of blaming what happened in Vietnam on soldiers as well as on the military leadership, the Presidents, etc. While they were horrified to learn about Mai-Lai and similar situations... it is vital to understand that soldiers are not the enemy. Most of them were drafted for gods sake. The enemies of peace are greed, ignorance and fear... as well as the love of power. There was never a need to be in Vietnam. I will say that the members of the anti-war or peace movements swere subjected to alot of abuse as well. They werent in combat to be sure...but as to verbal abuse, statements of hate, being beaten up, etc. of course a lot of that went on. I was called, in this thread, for writing about the need for peace...."a bunch of mooching, dirty, perverted, uncouth, unwashed socialist wasteoids," etc... somewhere else, a yellow bellied so and so... The person who said this knows nothing about me or my life. Your father's experience was vastly more dramatic but ignorance is rampant and people feel strongly about their convictions...

Hoffa

Thanks for the info "my father is a Vietnam veteran". God bless him for his service. So is my oldest brother and a heap of cousins. They were all drafted, as I assume your father was. They are of a different generation. I came within 2 years of being caught up in the Vietnam maelstrom but Nixon is my hero (despite his failings) as he ended the draft. Helps me understand your commentaries going forward as to your age group. So much now comes into focus as to your attitudes and former commentaries. Sorry, but your generation has been labeled as a very selfish bunch. And some of your postings come across that way from a generation that did not have to suffer much.

@JRH
You have a number of misconceptions. Many have been corrected by others. Let me correct another.
You guessed right that the toppling of Saddam's statue was a propaganda piece. See http://tinyurl.com/3867xbc. Most of the citizens of Baghdad at the time were too busy looting the city to welcome us. Please note the only place we bothered to guard in the first few days was the Oil Ministry.

@Lyle -

I don't have a problem in the world with a former combat soldier protesting, and I wholly agree with you about their right, or anyone else's for that matter, to do so. But, there's a respectful classy way to do it and a disrespectful and unclassy way to do it. Wiping ones ass in public with the American flag after having just defecated, or throwing your earned medals on the ground when returning them - sorry, but that's just a downright disrespectful and unclassy way of going about an anti-war protest. Call it a matter of taste if you will - they have the right to protest in such a fashion, but merely having such a right still doesn't make it respectful or classy, does it?

And yes, I also wholly agree with you about those who gamed the system in order to avoid service, no matter what side of the political aisle they happen to fall on - it's disgraceful!

@Brian Carlson -

"There was never a need to be in Vietnam."

So, I guess that you were just fine allowing the Chinese supported Northern Vietnamese to march into Southern Vietnam and slaughter in cold blood millions of our NATO ally's civilians without such actions warranting so much as a response from us, right? I guess your credo is treat your friends like your enemies and your enemies like your friends, eh?

"Your father's experience was vastly more dramatic but ignorance is rampant and people feel strongly about their convictions..."

I sincerely hope that this was just a poorly worded and/or structured sentence and that you are not seriously trying to compare anti-war protestor ridicule to the ridicule received by our returning soldiers from this very same crowd, otherwise, I find such to be utterly preposterous and shameful in and of itself. If you don't like attention, then don't do things that attract attention - simple enough, isn't it? But wasn't that the whole point of the anti-war crowd at such time - to attract as much attention as possible, whether that be positive or negative attention. I don't deny that the 'hippie' types weren't verbally ridiculed, but to attempt to compare that to the level of what a returning Veteran to a hostile home team must have felt like, all I can say in response is - come on, REALLY?!?

@$$andSense -

Why is it that you appear to love insulting and/or attacking and trying to start a back and forth insult session with Hoffa?

Everyone that knows Hoffa would never use the word 'selfish' to describe him.

@St. Swithin -

Whether the toppling of the statue was staged or not, even Mr. Carlson realizes that such event was wholly representative of the sentiment that the people of Iraq had for Saddam. Most were thankful to see him and his regime ousted from power. Unless you have facts to the contrary, I fail to see how you discredited the substance of any of my postings.

@JRH...The throwing away of medals and awards by those who had become so disgusted with the war and then turn around and wipe themselves with the symbolism of their discontent is an effective means to shock the public into listening to the message and the disgusting nature of being drawn into a conflict with no purpose. I've been there, done that, and realize the betrayal. Wrapping oneself in a flag and screaming patriotism is being violated are no different than post WW I Germany and look what that got us. Blind patriotism is comparable to the march of lemmings to the cliff's edge. Better to pursue peace before a war than attempt to heal after a war.

There's no doubt that we suck at nation building, as one needs to look no further than Central America to realize that - hence why we shouldn't be engaging in it. But to assist others in overthrowing a tyrannical regime; even we received help from the French against the British. The biggest problem right now is that we tend to help those that never asked nor even wanted our help in the first place, while ignoring those who have been asking us for help for decades - just look at Burma (Myanmar) as a classic example of this sentiment.

$$, "this mess the rest of the world creates".... Have you read any of the history of western intervention in the middle east since the first British wells were drilled? Problem is... You can't bomb away messes. It just makes more of a mess.

General Beringer: What does the WORP recommend Mr. McKittrick ?
Dr. John McKittrick: Full-scale retaliatory strike.
General Beringer: (Chuckling) I need some machine to tell me that!

My favorite is Barry Corbin's remark that he'd stand up top and 'tinkle' on a spark-plug if it would help.

@Randy1949 -

That was actually a completely improvised line that came from Corbin himself, as it wasn't in the script. As Corbin states on the DVD commentary, he actually dared his cousin into actually doing that when they were kids. He's a great actor and was definitely the right man to play Beringer. In general, the film really was perfectly cast.

@AudiFan...American Exceptionalism? You've got to be kidding.

Well that snaps it. Now I'm being called a progressive elitist. Seriously, these abstractions are meaningless. As soon as you speak in terms of these labels, you are speaking to symbols and symbolic thinkers. I love Americas enemies and hate America? I condemn my fellow Americans? AUDIFAN.. Substantiate that please by quoting me. Actually, were I a Christian, I might follow the teaching to love my enemies and pray for those who persecute me... Or did he say to bomb them?
But I dont have any enemies.

mau, George W. Bush started two unfunded wars which Obama is working to end. I think it's unpatriotic of you not to support Obama's initiatives to end terrorism in the Middle East.

Cindy Sheehan's son was killed in Iraq, which is why she became an anti-war protestor. If you Google her name you will find that, in direct contradiction to your statement "she is nowhere to be found," her activism continues.

Another inaccurate comment you made was "POTUS was hosting the 1%rs (G8) at Camp David." In fact this meeting was held with world political leaders (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18128995).

Again, I believe it is unpatriotic to criticize Obama's initiatives to neutralize the threat of terrorism in the Middle East (which is responsible for thousands of deaths in that region and here). If someone wants peace they should support Barack Obama, who won the Nobel Peace Prize 2009 "for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples".

Let's keep it real, mau.

@Bren -

Obama's receipt of the Peace Prize completely discredited the Nobel foundation and it's prizes from that day forward. He did absolutely nothing to actually earn it and it represented nothing more than a slap in the face to those that actually deserved it.

How is a President that put us into Libya, Northern Africa, and managed to significantly destabilize our relations with Israel, Pakistan, Russia in any way shape or form a President that is promoting peace? And peace at the expense of what exactly - allowing our interests to be trampled over by nations such as China, Iran, etc?

Come on, REALLY???

@JRH... C'mon now, the committee was prescient or maybe more along the lines of omniscient, when they made the decision to award the peace prize. The deadline for the 2009 peace prize only included Obama's first 12 days in office.

The G8, G20, G30, whichever these meetings are held for, are the elitists of the world. They control and make decisions about the entire international community. Don't say these aren't the ultimate 1%rs. They are the rich, the powerful, the decision makers, bankers, internationalists, creators of the trade agreements, decision makers of war. In the past this same group would have been protested by the same people who were in Chicago. They are turning a blind eye to their chosen one obama. Cindy may be protesting but the media spot light is not on her like it was the 8 years Bush was in office. Obama is no peace hero. Like JRH says, he has us tangled up in wars that the media chose to ignore. I'm still waiting for him to fulfill his Executive Order to close Guantanamo Bay. Everything he ever does has to do with campaigning for himself.

@Mau --are you volunteering Wisconsin as a place to house the Guantanamo prisoners we really shouldn't release? Are you willing to have them tried here in the US? Because that was the stumbling point to closing the facility --NIMBY.

I was never the one who supported this POTUS coming in like a raging bull, signing the Executive Order, to close it. He was the one who wanted the prisoners tried on US soil. This is the same POTUS who was so vocal about water boarding and now is quiet as a church mouse about it. He bashed Bush all over the place about his policies, promised his hope and change, and then is following the same policies as Bush.

How many assasinations of world figures did Bush arrange and have carried out.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/05/obama_2012_stealing_bushs_legacy.html

In that case, Mau, why are you complaining that President Obama hasn't shut down Guantanamo as he had initially said he would? Are you saying that we're still water-boarding prisoners there? And are you honestly complaining about the death of Bin Laden?

I am pointing out that the POTUS is no peace president. You are twisting what I write. I have no opinion on the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay as all I have to go on is what the government feeds the media who feeds the public. To pass a law using an Executive Order is probably the most powerful tool a POTU has to bypass our government. And to take this route and then not follow it shows me what kind of president he is. I have no idea what justified the assasination of Bin Laden. Do you really think that a leader who hid out like he did would have his photo taken of himself watching tv? And to have a compound right in the middle of a city and our intelligence didn't know he was there. So who is the next boogey man (oops person) terrorist.

Sorry to say I think humanity has a problem. I have been doing some reading recently about all the horrific attrocities that took place in Europe at the end of WWII. They were carried out by all sides, Germans, Italians, Russians, Croatians, Yugoslavians, Americans, British....... War lowers humans to the level of vicious mindless animals.