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Gun Control: Why it wouldn't have prevented the Newtown, CT killings

I promised that there would be time to debate what went wrong in Newtown, CT. Why laws that restrict guns may be responsible.

24 hours later, the hurt is not easing, but there are those that want the debate to begin now.  And what I am about to say will clearly anger those that want more restrictions on gun ownership, but the facts presented will prove how insane those steps would be in preventing such attacks.

What do the last four attacks, the Newtown, Ct. attack, the mall attack just 4 days ago, the Salon attack and the Sikh attack all have in common?  They were considered safe places that were "gun-free" zones.  What else did they have in common?  They were all in states that generally allowed "conceal or open carry" of guns.  You will see that almost every mass casualty shooting is in a place where people would not expect it.  Or, they are in places where the victims are not allowed to defend themselves.

If law abiding citizens were allowed to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights, then maybe; just maybe, there would be less victims of mass murder.  Surely, if just one teacher or staff member would have had a gun, the shooter may have been stopped well before he reached the classrooms.  Innocent lives are lost today because of states not granting law abiding citizens their full 2nd Amendment rights.

It is obvious that law abiding gun owners are not committing these acts.  In yesterday's tragedy, the guns were stolen from his mother (who had no criminal record and obtained the guns legally), the shooter was under the age of 21 (not allowed to possess handguns), and he brought guns into a "gun-free" zone.  All seemed to be laws put into place to protect society, but all failed in a horrific way.

The tragedy in Norway was much the same.  71 lives were lost in a country that has high gun ownership.  However, Norway does not allow open or concealed carry.  You don't think one legal gun owner could have prevented some lives in that situation?

Again, and I have brought this up in other posts, Chicago has some of the most restictive gun laws in the world, yet more people are killed by guns in the city in one year, than all the deployed troops in active war zones.

The crazed mass murderer surely doesn't care about the sanctity of life; why would he care if he breaks a few gun laws to achieve is goal.  To think otherwise is just ridiculous, and that is where the left's argument falls apart.

It is time to admit that there are just evil people in this world that are willing to do the unthinkable.  I don't care if this guy had a mental issue or not.  The fact is he is just an example of pure evil.  Evil doesn't  care about laws.  Evil attacks the defenseless.  Evil attacks the weak.  Evil doesn't care if it's a gun, knife, car bomb, or airplane.  Yesterday, as well as many times in history, evil hit us at home.  This was personal to almost every human being.  The taking of such young, defenseless and innocent children in a place that parents must entrust safety of their precious children, is as heinous as evil can get.

So while we mourn and pray for all those affected by this massacre, lets not make the situation worse by adding new restrictive gun control laws.  Let's really think how we can let our teachers and administrators protect our children by lifting the ridiculous "gun-free" zones.  They should have the same right to protect themselves and their children, as I do in my home.  If not them, than who?

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CowDung December 17, 2012 at 06:59 PM
"A question about Chicago is how much WORSE would it be if guns were being legally carried? I lived in Chicago. Compare apples to apples. " Dirk: This HuffPo article seems to answer your question--More gun murders in Chicago with the gun ban was in place... "Chicago Police Department statistics, we are told, reveal that the City's handgun murder rate has actually increased since the ban was enacted and that Chicago residents now face one of the highest murder rates in the country and rates of other violent crimes that exceed the average in comparable cities." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/28/chicago-gun-ban-axed-afte_n_627773.html
FreeThought Troy December 17, 2012 at 07:04 PM
Mr. Dey and I agree on next to nothing. This is a pretty accurate statement. I will; however, agree he can have the amount of guns he has. He sounds to me an avid outdoorsman and I am quite sure he stores and teaches his children that guns are quite serious tools that are not to be messed around with. I also grew up in this culture. I would go so far to say a vast-VAST majority of gun owners are responsible and treat thier tools with the care they demand. Thus said, let us please review the looks of a .223-caliber Bushmaster. There is no way in this reality one can convince me of it's uses for an outdoorsman. A 30 round clip to a 9 mm? Also, no reason in this world that is necessary. You can go on and on about how criminals get these things anyway, but the point is in all of these mass shootings a vast majority of the weapondry was aquired legally. It shouldn't be this easy. Yes. We need to pay attention to the population in Chicago, and New York and LA. These kids are also murdered everyday with guns. Arming more people isn't the answer. Getting the guns away from those not responsible is. Police response times are amazing and these highly trained men and women do a phenominal job. With the crunch of municiple budgets and the elimination of police force, there WILL be a strain on this. Maybe these gov. employees need to be expanded, also.
Young Conservative December 17, 2012 at 07:15 PM
Again, just trying to do my part to educate you low information emotive wash women. It is not a clip, it is a magazine, and I shot a 190 pound doe with one this fall. Now get back to your knitting Troy.
FreeThought Troy December 17, 2012 at 07:20 PM
Young: You are a sad, sorry, little man aren't you? I pitty you. I really do.
Brian Dey December 17, 2012 at 07:31 PM
Dirk- Talk about wow? You jump to conclusions that I haven't even touched on. I do believe that weapons bans will solve nothing. Nada. Zilch. I have no problems with further training of indivuals who want to own firearms. Background checks? You bet. Sen. Feinstein isn't talking about rational changes, Dirk. We are talking about banning semi-automatic firearms, including the sale, transfer, transportation and possession. We are talking about banning any clip of 10 or more rounds. Have all the bans you want and it will not stop this from happening if some nut decides he wants to commit mass murder. Norway has one of the strictest gun laws on the books, yet 71 teenagers and counselors were gunned down in cold blood at a youth retreat. Russia has assault weapon and handgun bans, yet in November of 2004, 12 people, including 8 adults and 4 children were killed with 11 of them who were stabbed multiple times. Even in England, long said to be the most strict on gun control has had mass murders, including 11 killed and 7 injured in Hungerford 1987. In 1988, England banned rifles and clips of more than 3 were banned. Hmmm... Should have ended the carnage, right? Not the case, in 1196 the Dunblane school massacre took place, killing 16 children and 1 adult. In 1997, they then banned handguns following the massacre. Should have stopped it, right? Nope, then came the 2010 Cumbria killing spree, killing 12 and injuring 11. See th problem with bans yet?
Brian Dey December 17, 2012 at 07:33 PM
Dirk- Please think of how stupid your comments sound. Those adults tried to stop a guy loaded to the hilt with their bodies. Even you should be able to figure out that had they had a gun, they would have had a better chance. Maybe you are not that smart.
Lu December 17, 2012 at 07:48 PM
The issue is not gun control, it goes far beyond that to an issue that has no good answers. It starts with the breakdown of traditional family and family values. From what I can gather from my readings on the gunman, he had some fairly significant mental and social issues that ultimately led to this horrible act. As a society how do we address this? I don't have the answer but I can tell you that dumping these "social issues" on schools and teachers to deal with is absolutely the WRONG answer. There has to be a revamping of social services of some sort to address this specific issue. This is one main reason why I do not support additional funding for schools (generally speaking) as I don't think more money going to schools is the right answer or even has a remote chance at addressing the root problem. Teachers need to teach, not be surrogate moms and dads or social workers. Guns are not the issue at hand, it's how as a society we deal with those capable of committing such crimes.
Brian Dey December 17, 2012 at 07:52 PM
Heather- I wrote this piece to specifically deal with one aspect of the problem, but this is just one of many possible solutions for that specific problem. The mental health issue is a harder one to tackle and out of my area of knowledge. I do know that millions of Americans have mental diseases that go undiagnosed. How do we identify those individuals. I do know that certain psychological medications, such as those prescribed for ADHD are clearly marked that those individuals should not use firearms. And I know that if you are on those types of prescriptions, you cannot enter the armed forces. I know that a majority of the adults known to have a mental illness go untreated. And that minor children with mental illness don't always get treatment because parents don't want to admit their child has a mental illness. If this man's mother knew he had a mental illness and still had all those guns within his reach, then she is responsible, not every law abiding citizen that owns a gun. As it is now, we have waiting periods and FBI background checks before any legal purchase. Is anyone blaming the FBI for not conducting a thorough background check? There is no easy solution. But having adults responsible for millions of children everyday and posting signs that proclaim "Gun Free Zones" is putting them at risk. And not having the ability to combat such attacks is just plain ignorant.
FreeThought Troy December 17, 2012 at 07:52 PM
Craig- I haven't laughed so thouroughly in a week. That was awesome. Thank you.
Brian Dey December 17, 2012 at 08:03 PM
FTT- You have a valid point. But from the evidence provided, it souds like these weapons were fully automatic. The Bushmaster can have an auto firing pin, and is easily converted from semi-auto. While not legal to own or possess, I don't think this guy cared about breaking any of the 40+ CT gun laws that he did, not to mention federal laws. In Canada, they have better background checks then we do. They also require different levels of training depending on the type of firearm you wish to possess. I do not see a reason to own 30 round clips lawfully. I do know some that use AR-15's, which are semi-auto sold legally, to hunt. It is no different sold legally then a Semi-auto .243, .270, 30-30, 30.06. I own a bolt action .243 and it has certain applications, especially for long range shooting, however, I have a Remington semi-auto .06 which is great for shooting deer on the run, or bear hunting.
Bren December 17, 2012 at 08:26 PM
Thank you again for the more appropriately placed chuckle, Anti. "Even Bren gets it." ; ) My obviously limited intelligence aside, I do believe it is definitely time to loosen the grip on special interest groups and their stranglehold on good governance. I think that if someone wants military weapons that are not used for hunting critters, they should have an excellent rationale for owning one and regular psychiatric and physical check-ups to ensure that they are in good fighting condition. And the ban on assault weapons needs to be reinstated. And those individuals who continue to call for cuts to social aid programs, which provide services to those with mental and/or physical challenges/disabilities, need to knock it off.
FreeThought Troy December 17, 2012 at 08:27 PM
Brian - Common ground. What you say makes a whole lot of sence to me. I think we all agree this cat in CT didn't really care that he was breaking laws. What I struggle with isn't that he was breaking law, but because of the slack laws, the ease in which he aquired these tools. An AR-15 to hunt? Wow. Ok - I am not judging. Use what you will to hunt. So if we can agree on the magazine size, can this be open to regulation? Own the gun, but let's not make high capacity magazines so easily available?
Richard Head December 17, 2012 at 08:41 PM
FTT "Thus said, let us please review the looks of a .223-caliber Bushmaster. There is no way in this reality one can convince me of it's uses for an outdoorsman. A 30 round clip to a 9 mm?" I prefer an AKM, semiautomatic, 7.62x39 and a Shotgun. These are configured purely for self-defense. After an event like Katrina, Sandy, or even rioting - the police won't be able to respond to calls for help. Now is the time for these weapons to come out. The appearance of these weapons is enough to deter many with illegal activities on their mind - but if that doesn't work - they will stop them dead in their tracks. You band together with like minded neighbors - and protect the good people in your local neighborhood. It's the anti-dote for the Looters, Rapists, and Thieves who will appear to take advantage of any disaster. My guns are purely for killing humans bent on criminal acts, not hunting, and they are usually locked up and secured. “What Katrina demonstrated is that we’re just one disaster away from anarchy. Many police officers simply fled the city and many who remained were part of the problem, not part of the solution. And anyone who tried to ride out the storm was left to fend for themselves,” says Bird. “And that includes protecting themselves from the thugs who were stealing cars and roaming the streets looking for dry, empty houses to loot.” http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/blogs/klessons/p/0091.html
Brian Dey December 17, 2012 at 08:41 PM
FTT- I know, an AR-15 for hunting isn't exactly my cup of tea either. Better enforcement of the existing laws could go along way. Growing up in the hunters environment, you'll get this. If gun laws were enforced by all law enforcement like the DNR enforces gun laws, we might actually make head way.
Richard Head December 17, 2012 at 08:55 PM
The government being the sole repository of weapons doesn't work either... "American troops sold $2 million worth of weapons and combat gear, including assault rifles and night vision goggles to street gangs and to foreign countries, including China, in a wide-ranging criminal conspiracy uncovered by a Navy probe, according to military officials." http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/15/11717393-marines-sold-stolen-combat-weapons-to-gangs-china?lite "RALEIGH — Raids across the country have turned up stolen military weapons and explosives. FBI agents have arrested six Marines from Camp Lejeune and seven other people from North Carolina. The FBI, ATF and Naval Criminal Investigators have charged the Marines and civilians with trafficking in stolen weapons. "You have firearms and ammunition such as an M79 grenade launcher," explains ATF agent, Mark Logan, "and the Chinese manufactured semi-automatic version of the AK-47 converted to a fully-automatic machine gun." http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/166264/ John Brown - In 1859, Brown led an unsuccessful raid on the federal armory at Harpers Ferry that ended with his capture... Brown demanded violent action. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_%28abolitionist%29
Richard Head December 17, 2012 at 08:59 PM
OR - the weapons will be safer stored with the Police: "LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Dozens of police weapons, including submachine guns, were stolen from a SWAT training building by thieves who cut through a series of locked doors, police said. The 21 MP-5 submachine guns and 12 large-caliber handguns were altered to fire blanks, but police were concerned that they could be converted back to take live ammunition. The unguarded building was considered secure, LAPD Deputy Chief Michael Downing told the Los Angeles Times. "I guess `secure' is all relative now," he said. "It's embarrassing. ... It's a lesson learned." The guns were moved Wednesday night to a multistory downtown building and stored in a locked box on the first floor, Downing said. The building is about a mile from SWAT headquarters. It was donated to the department and has no alarm or surveillance systems. SWAT members were scheduled to train at the building Thursday, but a police officer arriving at about 9 a.m. found that the weapons were missing, Downing said. http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=1070&sid=17703732&title=weapons-stolen-from-los-angeles-swat-training-site
Young Conservative December 17, 2012 at 10:03 PM
The only difference between any .223 semi automatic rifle and an AR 15 is looks. I have a Ruger Mini 14 Ranch .223 which has a 30 shot mag and it is identical to the AR except for looks. Now are you liberals that stupid(of course you are) that you are going to ban guns based upon looks? And you wonder why we conservatives have to talk down to such low information folks.
Richard Head December 18, 2012 at 01:33 PM
How about a 21st.C solution? Abolish public education, as we know it. No more brick and mortar schools. No more concentrations of children for the mentally deranged. Louisiana moves FORWARD with 21st. C solutions to failing schools: "BATON ROUGE (CNS)—More than two dozen entities have filed applications with the Louisiana Department of Education for approval to offer online courses as an alternative to failing schools. Course providers were cut in for a slice of education funds pie by in HB 976 (Act 2) which provides for the teaching of virtual classes online." http://www.tri-parishtimes.com/opinion/article_5e08e860-f2ed-11e1-a53c-0019bb2963f4.html Cont...
Richard Head December 18, 2012 at 01:37 PM
" The Khan Academy is an organization on a mission. We're a not-for-profit with the goal of changing education for the better by providing a free world-class education for anyone anywhere. All of the site's resources are available to anyone. It doesn't matter if you are a student, teacher, home-schooler, principal, adult returning to the classroom after 20 years, or a friendly alien just trying to get a leg up in earthly biology. The Khan Academy's materials and resources are available to you completely free of charge. http://www.khanacademy.org/about "We are a social entrepreneurship company that partners with the top universities in the world to offer courses online for anyone to take, for free. We envision a future where the top universities are educating not only thousands of students, but millions. Our technology enables the best professors to teach tens or hundreds of thousands of students. Through this, we hope to give everyone access to the world-class education that has so far been available only to a select few. We want to empower people with education that will improve their lives, the lives of their families, and the communities they live in. " https://www.coursera.org/about "University of the People (UoPeople) is the world's first non-profit, tuition- free online university dedicated to opening the gates to higher education for all individuals otherwise constrained." http://www.uopeople.org/
Dirk Gutzmiller December 18, 2012 at 06:07 PM
Dey, Education Deformer - Of course a teacher with a gun would have a better chance than without one when confrounting a heavily armored, trained, AR15, 30 round carrying madman. What I really cannot believe about your opinions is that you were on a school board for a short period. Teachers or other staff in a school carrying loaded guns - what about the liability costs should inevitable gun accidents happen? And what about the gun-toting teacher/janitor/secretary that does not attack the mad gunman at all or in a timely manner? Can I sue the school district for failing to protect my dead 6 yr. old properly when he should have been shot by the art teacher?. Shots are being fired and you the teacher are in another room. Do you just rush out there rather suicidally while children are dying, try to protect the children in the room with you, try a sneak attack which may take a lot of time, etc. Even police do not just rush in to a hail of bullets and starting shooting. Think it out more, that is a lesson a good education provides. Get one.
Randy1949 December 18, 2012 at 06:13 PM
Someone on the school board also ought to be able to spell 'Ritalin' as a minimum.
Dirk Gutzmiller December 18, 2012 at 06:27 PM
Dey and Gearhead - Pardon my amusement at your statistics, including references to foreign countries, etc. Statistics, and we all know about how they can lie, will not stop the inevitable enhanced gun control laws coming. The NRA overreached, and 20 dead, small children horrifically shot by a Bushmaster AR15 with 30 rounds in a small, safe town will overpower your NRA provided talking points. Its all over but the shouting. You lose...why else would all those Congressmen with A ratings from the NRA refuse to appear on Face the Nation? Even Senator Joe Manchin, a long-time member of the National Rifle Association with an A rating from the rich and powerful gun-lobby, said ‘everything should be on the table’. You are looking even more like social and political outcasts at this point. Go to the bitter end if you choose. And you appear so weak, helpless and limp-wristed when you propose that nothing can really be done about these kilings. Of course it can, we are Americans, and not Norwegians or Brits.
Dirk Gutzmiller December 18, 2012 at 06:42 PM
Head - Talk on and on and on, and try to make new, rational gun legislation appear hopeless in controlling these mass murders, but America will not give up on rational gun control when little children have been slaughtered. If the proposed legislation will not work, what are you afraid of then, to devote so much chatter?
Brian Dey December 18, 2012 at 07:33 PM
Dirk- Yes, as a school board member, you are faced with these issues. I was on the board post Columbine and Dunblane, England massacres. And on the board during the time of the Virginia Tech Massacre. The discussion of safety in schools faces every school board member across the country, and not just after one of these massacres occurs. Maybe instead of typing on a computer, you should actually do some civil service. You don't have the guts to make those kinds of decisions. Apparently, school districts are already implementing what I proposed. Michigan already passed a law to allow teachers to carry guns as long as they have taken tactical training. Israel has been doing this for years, since the Ma'alot massacre in 1974. Legislation is being presented in Oregon and Minnesota for the same thing. If you ever did any research besides bloviating your uneducated opinion, there are such laws, called "hold harmless" clauses that would prevent you from suing. So in your twisted mind, even though we know the end result may have been much better, you choose to just continue to blame the gun. Genius...Real genius. And Randy, sorry if I don't meet you high standard of spelling.
Brian Dey December 18, 2012 at 07:41 PM
Hey Dirk, before you pat yourself on the back, the statistics are from the your beloved UN. Try this stat on for size. When the assault weapons ban was on the books from 1994 to 2004, there were 9 gun massacres in the U.S. 59 dead, 70 injured all with weapons on the ban list, and you lefties want to do the same thing again. What makes you think it will work this time? Remember what Einstein said, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results." You seem to fit that definition pretty well. Oh and the source is the Citizens Crime Commission of New York City.
Dirk Gutzmiller December 19, 2012 at 02:16 AM
Dey - You are soooo out of touch with this. You come across as a howling gun nut, supporting the continued sale of assault weaponry and huge ammo magazines in the face of America's outrage.. Even your sacred NRA will be softening up on gun laws. They have to, as spokemen like you are infuriating good Americans by mumbling that nothing can be done to prevent this type of violence, except by more and more people carrying more and more guns. Quoting gun numbers and violence through the world is naive and misleading. Culture is a huge variable in gun violence, even more than laws or lack thereof when it comes to guns. America must deal with its own cultural realities, not Switzerland's or any other country. You need to recognize that the event in Conn. was so heinous, horrific, and so totally beyond the standards of civilized decency, utterly intolerable, that we are indeed compelled to develop the best solutions that we can, and rabid fans of military style assault weapons will just have to sacrifice their right to go into Wal-Mart and buy a virtual military arsenal.
Young Conservative December 19, 2012 at 02:19 AM
Dirky boy is another low information she-male Obama voter I see....who knows nothing about guns.
Brian Dey December 19, 2012 at 03:31 AM
Dirk: Here is the complete list of school shootings during the Clinton Assault Weapon Ban between 1994 and 2004: 11/15/95 - Lynville, Tn School shooting, 2 dead, 1 injured, 22 semi auto rifle 2/2/96 - Moses Lake, Wa School shooting, 3 killed, 1 injured, 30-30 rifle, 357 and 22 pistol 2/19/97 - Bethel, Ak School shooting, killed 2, injured 2, AR-180 and .44 revolver 10/1/97 - Pearl, Ms School shooting, 3 killed, 7 injured, 30.30 rifle and knife 12/1/97 - West Paducah, Ky School shooting, 3 killed, 5 injured, .22 rifle, .22 handgun, 12 ga. shotgun 4/24/98 - Edinboro, Pa School shooting, 1 killed, 3 injured, .25 pistol 5/21/98 - Springfield, Or School shooting, 4 killed, 24 injured, various pistols and a .22 rifle 4/20/99 - Columbine, Co School shooting, 15 killed, 21 injured, various handguns and shotguns 5/20/99 - Conye...rs, Ga School shooting, 6 injured, .22 long rife and .357 revolver 11/2/99 - Honolulu, Hi Office Shooting, 5 killed, 3 wounded, no weapon description other than gun 12/26/00 - Wakefield, Ma Office Shooting, 7 killed, AK-47, 12 ga. Shotgun and .32 cal. revolver 3/5/01 - Santee, Ca School Shooting, 2 killed, 13 wounded 3/22/01 El Cajon, Ca School Shooting, 5 wounded, suspect shot and arrested by police officer on campus 1/16/02 Grundy, Va College Shooting, 3 killed, 3 wounded, .380ACP Semi Auto handgun 4/14/03 New Orleans, La School Shooting, 1 killed, 3 wounded with AK-47 cont...
Brian Dey December 19, 2012 at 03:48 AM
Dirk- Again, you can ban assault rifles all you want, then it will be revolvers, long rifles, etc... They were all used in the killings above. 60 dead, 100 injured. Weapons used include. The largest during that time frame, Columbine used handguns and shotguns. See this is why we fight so hard to protect our right to bear arms. The Assault ban didn't work, so lets ban handguns. Well that didn't work so let's ban all rifles. That didn't work so let's ban shotguns. BTW- the Bushmaster semi-auto is not an assault weapon. I do understand this was the most heinous of crimes, but the responsibility solely lies with the shooter. You need to realize thatand stop making excuses for him. I didn't mumble that nothing can be done. I offered a viable solution. Let me outline it again. Remove the "Gun Free Zone" signs. Allow staff who are trained in tactical use of a firearm to be armed on school grounds, or ante up and pay for armed security, be it off duty police officers or others properly trained. We already have that in our high schools in Racine. Use the Canadian model for proper training depending on the type of gun you own. If you are on medication that warns of suicidal thoughts or violence associated with the side effects, the doctor must report that to the FBI, which conducts background checks forfirearm purchases. Have stiffer penalties for gun owners who do not promptly report a stolen gun. cont...
Brian Dey December 19, 2012 at 03:49 AM
All these will have a greater effect than any ban you throw out there and the proof is listed above. If you are not willing to think of anything other than ban guns, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. And using other countries was just to further support the data collected in the U.S. for U.S. shootings. And I have already spelled out on another thread that I see no reason to have magazines that hold more than 9 and 1 in the chamber.

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